Gas at only 2 pounds for a house?

Captured Light Glass · #1 2008-01-31, 5:59pm

We have been told by our gas guy that we can only have a max of 2 pounds for a residential area? He said this was mandated throughout the entire US?

We wanted to run propane off of our big tank that we use for the house (500 gallon) and he said he can't go higher than the 2 pounds which is not enough. Have anyone heard of this?

aimee · #2 2008-01-31, 6:27pm

I don't know for sure but I do know a lot of people will run a booster to their torch from their house line. That's probably why they do it.

Dale M. · #3 2008-01-31, 8:27pm

You need to go here....

http://www.nfpa.org/aboutthecodes/Ab...ookie%5Ftest=1

And work your way through PART 58 and see if there is proof of what gas man says or to proven him wrong....

There is a place on the page where you can VIEW document for free without having to purchase document once you have selected document you want...

My impression was and I have always heard that 10psi was the limit. This comes from the ISGB safety forum.

I have found that some people who work propane as a profession are not code savvy.... They only know what they have been told by whoever thought them "the business"...

Dale

Captured Light Glass · #4 2008-01-31, 8:35pm

Thank you Dale and Aimee - off to do some research. I thought that it was 10 too so let's see if I can prove him wrong.

Even if I do this is an old timer "do by the book" kind of guy and very trustworthy and I doubt that he would go above the perceived 2 lb limit.

Dale M. · #5 2008-01-31, 8:41pm

Yah... But if your book supersedes his book....

Dale

laserglass · #6 2008-02-01, 6:06am

yes, 2 PSI is fine for most torches. i believe that the older carlile (sp) torch requires higher gas pressure, but most torches will work fine.

and yes 2 PSI is the max pressure for both natural gas and propane, for residential zones, in the USA. industrial zones can get higher pressures. gas pressure boosters are a very expensive option if your torch needs higher pressure. if your torch requires higher pressure, get rid of the torch and get one that will work with the lower pressure like a red max.

Just Nancy · #7 2008-02-01, 6:11am

Possibly with a different line and extra shut offs. We had everything ready to go in our out building. Then they said they wouldn't connect it full pressure. So we redid the black piping to include 2 lines. One specification they asked for was the fewest joints. Then we have a shut off for this line at the tank. (Well that is a shut off for all gas in the outbuilding.) A shut off going into the building for the full pressure line that bypasses the regulator and a shut off on the wall before my regulators and flashback set up.

Our building inspector had no problem with this as it is an out building. (Heck, they didn't require all the hoops the propane supplier did.) I don't know what he would have said if it was residental.

DanG · #8 2008-02-02, 5:52am

I have asked other people this and no one has answered.Why can't you use propane?

evolvingBeau · #9 2008-02-02, 9:43am

Quote:

Originally Posted by laserglass

yes, 2 PSI is fine for most torches. i believe that the older carlile (sp) torch requires higher gas pressure, but most torches will work fine.

and yes 2 PSI is the max pressure for both natural gas and propane, for residential zones, in the USA. industrial zones can get higher pressures. gas pressure boosters are a very expensive option if your torch needs higher pressure. if your torch requires higher pressure, get rid of the torch and get one that will work with the lower pressure like a red max.

Fine, but not great. You need to run at least 5 psi to get the most from your torch, even if it's just a minor burner working soft glass.
2 psi will do but it's slower at melting the glass, been there.
Just wanted to say this because if you start out on NG you won't realize what you're missing. For the hobbyist it's ok, but if you're trying to get alot of work done 2psi will slow you down.

Dale M. · #10 2008-02-02, 10:12am

Vince Henley on ISGB forum....

http://www.isgb.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=19

Has always claimed that its possible to go as high as 10 psi. Suggest you ask specific question of Vince in that forum. He claims to have intimate knowledge of rules and regulations and to have helped write them (NFPA code) ....

Dale

laserglass · #11 2008-02-02, 12:26pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by evolvingBeau

Fine, but not great. You need to run at least 5 psi to get the most from your torch, even if it's just a minor burner working soft glass.
2 psi will do but it's slower at melting the glass, been there.
Just wanted to say this because if you start out on NG you won't realize what you're missing. For the hobbyist it's ok, but if you're trying to get a lot of work done 2psi will slow you down.

i am sorry, but you are wrong. it is not the pressure of the gas that is important, but the volumetric flow rate in liters/min or cubic feet/hour that determines the total heating power of your torch. i run a major burner with a minor burner on top off of 2 psi natural gas, and the flames heating power is no different that it was when i used to run if off higher pressure fuel gas. the only difference is that for lower pressure, you will need to open your fuel knob up a little more than you would have to do with higher pressure gas. a normal torch has a heating power in the 10,000 to 30,000 BTU/hour range, which is mainly limited by your oxygen supply. you can only get 10,000 BTU/hour from a 5 liter/minute oxygen concentrator (actually more like 6,000 BTU/hour).

i run my 100,000 BTU/hour burner for my glory hole off of 0.25 psi natural gas, again the pressure has nothing to do with the heating power. now some torches will not operate at the lower pressure. the old carlile torch must have higher pressure because of its design.

here is a little reference reading

http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/sh...ighlight=Power

evolvingBeau · #12 2008-02-02, 12:48pm

Fair enough, I won't argue that I'm wrong.
I'm just basing my response on my experiences..I used the NG at house pressure for awhile, when I switched to propane at 5+ psi, the flame was much more efficient at melting the glass. If it didn't matter then why do the torch specs say to run our propane at 5 psi rather than 2?
No argument here, please don't get me wrong, I'm just trying to understand and learn.
If it didn't matter then I would switch back to NG, maybe it was something else that made the glass melt slower at the time.
As far as the glory hole goes, it's an entirely different piece of equipment, it has a blower and more importantly an insulated cavity that accumulates heat, therefore requiring far less fuel.

laserglass · #13 2008-02-02, 1:24pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by evolvingBeau

Fair enough, I won't argue that I'm wrong.
I'm just basing my response on my experiences..I used the NG at house pressure for awhile, when I switched to propane at 5+ psi, the flame was much more efficient at melting the glass. If it didn't matter then why do the torch specs say to run our propane at 5 psi rather than 2?
No argument here, please don't get me wrong, I'm just trying to understand and learn.
If it didn't matter then I would switch back to NG, maybe it was something else that made the glass melt slower at the time.
As far as the glory hole goes, it's an entirely different piece of equipment, it has a blower and more importantly an insulated cavity that accumulates heat, therefore requiring far less fuel.

i refer you to this thread i started some time ago

http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/sh...ighlight=Power

evolvingBeau · #14 2008-02-02, 1:58pm

Really interesting read there..It seems like your conclusion is based on BTU's per hour rather than flame temperature? I thought that BTU's per hour is a measurement used when you're trying to raise the temp in an enclosed space, it's not entirely applicable when you're talking about the effects of a torch flame directly on glass..
You're mostly talking about heating glory holes and heat output there anyway right?

Flame temp is what counts when your're trying to melt the glass, no?

The calculations don't seem entirely relevant to me in this application, I just know for sure that when we went from 2PSI NG to 5PSI propane that the glass melted much faster. Sorry I can't back it up with equations but that's my conclusion.
Maybe I need to give it another try to see if I have the same results, I would prefer to use NG and again am not trying to argue anything but my experiences.
No pee pee contest, just feel strongly about my own obvious results.

Dale M. · #15 2008-02-02, 2:12pm

Flame temperature is a constant (with proper fuel/oxidizer mix) ...The amount of heat (BTU) is a product of "volume" of fuel and oxidizer being consumed.... Volume does not always equate to pressure fuel is supplied at, it can also be size of pipe delivering fuel.... One thing here that is rarely touched on when discussion of fuel and oxygen is volumetric flow from gas sources and through hoses and torch....

A propane/oxygen flame had a temperature of about 5300°f.
Natural gas/oxygen flame has a temperature of about 5050°f.

Sorry don't have BTU figures right now...

But its how much BTU of heat you can transfer from flame to glass, that is why a big raging flame will heat glass faster then a woosie little flame...

Dale

evolvingBeau · #16 2008-02-02, 2:17pm

So does that mean that the glass is melting faster with propane than NG because it burns hotter? Or because the propane is running at a higher PSI?
Doesn't PSI have not have a relation to volume?
Sorry if I'm slow but volumetric flow isn't exactly the simplest thing to wrap the brain around..

laserglass · #17 2008-02-02, 3:00pm

the input fuel gas pressure, whatever it is, say 2 or 5 psi, is applied to the upstream side of the needle valve in your torch, buy the hose coming from the fuel regulator. when the valve is closed, there is the 2 to 5 psi on one side of the valve, and 0 psi (atmospheric pressure) on the other side of the valve. then when you open the valve on your torch, fuel will pass through the valve where it ends up at very nearly the same as atmospheric pressure. it will be slightly higher than atmospheric pressure to force the gas out of the torch to the burner head. for a given volumetric flow rate, the pressure at the burner head is not a function of the upstream fuel gas pressure. for lower fuel gas pressures, you will need to open up the needle valve more to get the same volumetric flow rate that you would get at a higher pressure. but the combustion process occurs at atmospheric pressure and the only thing that matters is the fuel/oxygen ratio which is set by the type of fuel that you use. if you are not limited by the amount of oxygen for your torch because you use a tank or liquid oxygen, then propane will give you a much higher amount of heating than natural gas. but if you are using an oxygen concentrator, the heat output of your torch will be nearly the same for either propane or natural gas. yes natrual gas has less BTU of heat per liter than propane, but natural gas requires less oxygen to get complete combustion, so with a given amount of oxygen, you can burn more natural gas than propane.

the BTU capacity of your torch will determine how large of mass of glass you can melt, but the flame shape can determine important factors as well. if you have a very hot pencil flame, you can heat up a small area much quicker than the same amount of heat spread out over a larger area, even though they have the same amount of output heat. people get flame temperature and heat output confused all the time, and both are important factors in lampworking. sometimes you want a real hot narrow flame to move some color around on your gather, other times you want a more diffused flame but want to get a larger gather of glass molten. as long as you have enough fuel gas pressure to deliver the required amount of volumetric flow of fuel to the burner head, it does not matter what the fuel gas pressure is.

DanG · #18 2008-02-02, 3:27pm

I think we have gotten off the problem that the post was started for. Michele I would like to know why you need to use NG in place of propane.You can store the tanks outside and pipe it in.DanG

Dale M. · #19 2008-02-02, 3:55pm

The concept is simple. By going natural gas, you go tankless.. You never have to haul around the propane tanks ever again....

Your fuel is there all the time in literally a endless supply (as long as you pay your utility bill)....

Same concept as with oxygen concentrator/generator... Endless supply of oxygen at the flip of a switch.... No more oxygen tanks ever again....

All the issues with "tanks" go away....

Dale

laserglass · #20 2008-02-02, 4:16pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanG

I think we have gotten off the problem that the post was started for. Michele I would like to know why you need to use NG in place of propane.You can store the tanks outside and pipe it in.DanG

one of the most important reasons to go to natural gas, besides what dale said about being tankless, is the fact that natural gas is safer. no fuel gas is totally safe as the many house explosions each year from leaking natural gas demonstrate, but natural gas is safer because it is lighter than air. so leaking natural gas does not "pool" in the lowest part of your home or studio where it can reach dangerous levels. given good ventilation and enough time, leaking natural gas will drift away.

evolvingBeau · #21 2008-02-02, 4:27pm

I think the original question was answered well and has been covered but this seemed like relevant discussion in regard to the topic.

I just want to say thanks to Mark and Dale you for taking the time to educate me on this, it's making good sense to me now. The relationship between BTU's per hour/flame temp/and actual working characteristics is very clear.

This statement raises some questions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by laserglass

if you are not limited by the amount of oxygen for your torch because you use a tank or liquid oxygen, then propane will give you a much higher amount of heating than natural gas. but if you are using an oxygen concentrator, the heat output of your torch will be nearly the same for either propane or natural gas. yes natrual gas has less BTU of heat per liter than propane, but natural gas requires less oxygen to get complete combustion, so with a given amount of oxygen, you can burn more natural gas than propane.

So with bottled oxygen and 5psi of propane you agree that you will achieve more heat output than with bottled O2 and 2psi of NG right?
And being that oxygen concentrators are not created equal I would think that this could effect your results as well.

My experience with this matter involves the following.
We use a dual AS-12 oxygen generator with a holding tank. Each AS-12 unit puts out 12 SCF/hr at up to 15psi (we run at about 10psi to maintain approx 95% purity).
This is what we were using when we tried NG at 2psi. This must be where our experience differs, with these generators and 5psi of propane my perception is that we can work much hotter and faster than using them with 2psi of NG. Does that make sense?
Thanks again.

glasswinder · #22 2008-02-02, 6:29pm

Michele,
You don't say what kind of torch you are using, but according to the information that came with my Nortel Minor, it uses 1/4-2 psi for natural gas or 2-6 psi for propane. Use for oxygen is 5-8 psi. I have been hooked up to natural gas (regular household pressure) and 1 oxycon for over a year and love the convience of never running out of fuel or oxygen! Go for it!! It burns glass plenty fast for me...........

laserglass · #23 2008-02-02, 7:55pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by evolvingBeau

So with bottled oxygen and 5psi of propane you agree that you will achieve more heat output than with bottled O2 and 2psi of NG right?

yes and no. yes more gas will leave a given size hole with higher pressure, so if you have unlimited oxygen, you will have a much bigger flame with higher pressure. but you never have unlimited oxygen, and there are no lampworking torchs that that i am aware of that would ever use that much fuel. but if there is some monster torch out there that can use that much fuel, and if you can keep your oxygen lines from freezing up, then you would get a bigger more powerfull flame with the higher pressure. but most of the torches i am aware of could not use that much fuel, so the real answer is no, with most standard lampworking torches, and bottled oxygen, you will get the exact same amount of heat, the exact flame temperature, the exact same flame at either 2 psi or 5 psi natural gas pressure. the only differerence will be that you will need to open up the fuel needle valve a bit more with the lower pressure fuel. this would not be true with a torch like the carlile (sp) that cannot operate on the lower pressure fuel. but with a torch like the red max or a minor, absolutely no difference.

DanG · #24 2008-02-02, 8:45pm

Try a real torch like the GTT's then you will know what good clean hot flame is.

evolvingBeau · #25 2008-02-02, 10:34pm

Mark, my torch flame is simply not the same when run with 2 PSI of NG compared to 5 PSI of propane (with identical oxygen source). I apolgize for going on about this and
I understand that you are more educated in regards to the physics of the matter but my results don't agree with your calculations. The difference in flame and/or performance is significant, not exactly the same whatsoever, opening the valve more does not correct this. But I digress (have been for awhile I guess).
The important thing is that we do what works for us.
BTW Dan, I've tried a GTT, and yes they are awesome, but my cheap un-real national 8M/3a has served me well through the years. Since I buy glass supplies and pay the bills with my beads, I haven't afforded the one I want just yet, but soon enough it will become a part of my arsenal.

DanG · #26 2008-02-03, 8:35am

I know alot of people that use nationals and love them.I don't think they are cheep they have been around for a long time. I do nothing but marbles so I need some thing that puts off a good hot clean flame. I was lucky to have been able to start of with the GTT torchs. When you get one you wont believe the difference.

Captured Light Glass · #27 2008-02-03, 6:58pm

Interesting responses and I am running Propane and not NG. I did a ton of reading including the material that Dale sent along and there is nothing definitive.

I did call the state though and indeed there is a 2psi pressure to the house. I am running a Carlisle MiniCC and a Wildcat. I am going to have the guy come back out and run it at 2 and we will see what happens.

I am not doing production so even if it slows me down a little that will be fine. My concern though is with boro so I guess we will just have to see and I will report back.

Thanks everyone!

laserglass · #28 2008-02-03, 7:49pm

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/fl...ses-d_422.html

Jamn! · #29 2008-02-11, 6:20pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dale M.

You need to go here....

http://www.nfpa.org/aboutthecodes/Ab...ookie%5Ftest=1

And work your way through PART 58 and see if there is proof of what gas man says or to proven him wrong....

There is a place on the page where you can VIEW document for free without having to purchase document once you have selected document you want...

My impression was and I have always heard that 10psi was the limit. This comes from the ISGB safety forum.

I have found that some people who work propane as a profession are not code savvy.... They only know what they have been told by whoever thought them "the business"...

Dale

Dale you are ALWAYS so helpful and full of knowledge!!

Jamn! · #30 2008-02-11, 6:25pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by evolvingBeau

Mark, my torch flame is simply not the same when run with 2 PSI of NG compared to 5 PSI of propane (with identical oxygen source). I apolgize for going on about this and
I understand that you are more educated in regards to the physics of the matter but my results don't agree with your calculations. The difference in flame and/or performance is significant, not exactly the same whatsoever, opening the valve more does not correct this. But I digress (have been for awhile I guess).
The important thing is that we do what works for us.
BTW Dan, I've tried a GTT, and yes they are awesome, but my cheap un-real national 8M/3a has served me well through the years. Since I buy glass supplies and pay the bills with my beads, I haven't afforded the one I want just yet, but soon enough it will become a part of my arsenal.

No kidding. Why would you switch when you get those awsome colors out of boro!

However what would you get with a GTT?? Hmmmm...