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Boro Room -- For Boro-related tips, techniques, and questions. |
2006-01-06, 10:24am
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boro color bender
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Join Date: Jun 06, 2005
Location: The Oregon coast!
Posts: 10,039
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Boro feedback... why do you use it or not use it???
Ok, I am totally in love with glass... but particularly boro. Most of you know how passionate I am about this stuff. It's my life. I think about it 24/7. I'm in a position to bridge a gap and hopefully get more of you into working boro. The torches and oxygen supply are just becoming cost effective for home bead makers to take the plunge into hard glass. So, I'm starting this thread to provide answers to questions and get feedback on what you guys think. If you have any questions or comments, let's discuss them. I want everybody to be as excited as I am to open the kiln and see something totally different than what went in.
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2006-01-06, 10:31am
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ManBearPig
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Join Date: Jun 28, 2005
Location: Roanoke, VA
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I mainly started working with it because of the colors. I got tired of the bright solid colors in soft glass, and liked the way you could get multiple colors out of a single rod of boro. I also like the colors you can get from just fuming on clear glass.
I keep working with it because it's more forgiving. Many times I have started working on something, sat it down and turned the torch off, and come back later and finished it. Plus, it lends itself nicely to working on larger pieces.
The only things I don't like are the cost of the glass and how much oxygen you use to work it (although recently I've been working with two concentrators instead of tanked oxygen) but like they say - you gotta pay to play!
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2006-01-06, 11:02am
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Glassy Lady
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Join Date: Jun 05, 2005
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Posts: 2,905
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I dabble in boro, but I mostly use soft glass.
I too love the colors I can get out of boro, but I often get dull colors. I am working on compiling a list of boro recipes for brighter colors. If you would publish a book on color recipes I would be the first in line for it.
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Alex Mironov
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BHB/PANDORA EXCHANGE IN THE PATIO
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2006-01-06, 11:10am
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boro color bender
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Join Date: Jun 06, 2005
Location: The Oregon coast!
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I agree Chad, It's expensive to feed a torch oxygen to work boro... but there is good news on the horizon. There is a new concentrator. It is the M-10 and it will run a Piranha like it's on a tank. It screams that torch. That concentrator is very affordable new. They are also coming out with an M-30 that will power a much larger torch. I'm really excited about this and it's one of the reasons for starting this thread. We are on the verge of it becoming very affordable for the home studio to work boro effortlessly. No more lugging tanks. Woohoo!
Alex, I feel you. I've struggled with the baby poop browns myself. It's really about the recipes, but also flame atmosphere. If you work in a reduced environment, it's really really tricky. It can be done, just look at Lori Robbins work. Having oxygen flow makes the bright colors alot easier in my opinion. I will hopefully be doing a few videos soon and I am expanding into teaching around at different studios. I think a video would be better than a book... since boro really requires the different flame atmospheres and that would be easier to show in full motion. If you ever see something and want to know the colors I used, just ask. I don't have any secrets... I'm just too lazy to tell most days.
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2006-01-06, 11:12am
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Fire Good!
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Join Date: Oct 11, 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 165
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Being new to lampwork in general I just haven't tried Boro but I already have Doug R's dvd. I have a Lynx torch and any oxy concentrator. I'm guessing I'll need a second oxy concentrator before I can begin a boro experiement, no?
Thanks for the thread!!!
Cheers ~
Robert
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2006-01-06, 11:13am
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Aug 04, 2005
Posts: 2,198
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Boro!!!!!! Whoo Hoo!! I started on a hothead and Bullseye rods. Then moved to the minor and Moretti. A bunch of torches and glass later..... now I'm on the Beth Great White and Boro. It was a natural progression for me. I like everything about boro. It is; easy to use, very forgiving, more working time without thermal shocking, wonderful color effects and provides endless opportunities for unique colors and artwork.
Cost of glass really is a very very very small factor in art. Even with gas, O2 and glass... it still costs less than $1 to make a $100 marble or less than 10 cents to make a $10 bead. It is an artists TIME that has the value. With the cost of the soft glass special colors on the rise, it's even less of an issue. Then taking into account that boro work is 90% clear and only 10% color.... it's starting to even out.
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2006-01-06, 11:15am
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Aug 04, 2005
Posts: 2,198
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AlexM....
Check out "The Cookbook of Color Borosilicate Recipes" available in any store!
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2006-01-06, 11:30am
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boro color bender
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Join Date: Jun 06, 2005
Location: The Oregon coast!
Posts: 10,039
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I was gonna mention that book Ron, but got side tracked. It's an awesome book with some really easy to do recipes. Lori and Rocio really out did themselves with all that info in an affordable book. It's great to get started with bor beads.
Also, for those of you new to the idea of boro, Ron is a wealth of information. He's one of the nicest guys in the business and has become a good friend of mine. I owe a lot of where I am today to him and his awesome customer service. If you don't have a flame working account with Art Glass House, I would highly suggest getting one and doing business with that company.
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2006-01-06, 11:31am
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boro color bender
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Join Date: Jun 06, 2005
Location: The Oregon coast!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flamesofglass
Being new to lampwork in general I just haven't tried Boro but I already have Doug R's dvd. I have a Lynx torch and any oxy concentrator. I'm guessing I'll need a second oxy concentrator before I can begin a boro experiement, no?
Thanks for the thread!!!
Cheers ~
Robert
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I would suggest looking into the M-10.
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2006-01-06, 11:42am
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Fire Good!
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Join Date: Oct 11, 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 165
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I can certainly look into it but for now that is all I would be doing with it : )
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2006-01-06, 11:45am
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ManBearPig
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Join Date: Jun 28, 2005
Location: Roanoke, VA
Posts: 8,540
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Smiley
I would suggest looking into the M-10.
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Who makes that concentrator? And where can someone purchase one?
Quote:
Originally Posted by R4GlassStudio
AlexM....
Check out "The Cookbook of Color Borosilicate Recipes" available in any store!
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When is the next one (for GA colors) coming out?
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2006-01-06, 11:50am
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boro color bender
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Join Date: Jun 06, 2005
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Chad, I can order the M-10 for you. It's $579 plus $40 flat rate shipping.
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2006-01-06, 11:52am
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Fire Good!
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Join Date: Oct 11, 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 165
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Under $650... Now you're talkin!
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2006-01-06, 11:54am
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ManBearPig
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Join Date: Jun 28, 2005
Location: Roanoke, VA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Smiley
Chad, I can order the M-10 for you. It's $579 plus $40 flat rate shipping.
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Really? Hmm... now if I can just find one near me to try out.
When is the M-30 coming out? Any idea on pricing?
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2006-01-06, 12:13pm
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boro color bender
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Join Date: Jun 06, 2005
Location: The Oregon coast!
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The M-30 is in the final stages of development. They are having the cases made, so after they have it put together, they will announce pricing. Until then, they aren't even giving us a good guess. It puts out 20LPM at 30 PSI and anything close to that has been at least $2k. It will come in below that and hopefully well below that, but I can't say for sure.
I just talked to JC and she is running her Cuda on an M-20. She's super happy with that, I haven't personally tried it, but I will definitely do that after talking to her. She's super stoked... Her transition into boro has been so much fun to watch. She's having a little LE get together next weekend and she's got some Northstar on it's way for them to play with. Northstar is going to be getting really involved with bead makers in the near future. I am chatting with them about the possibilities and that's one of the reasons I'm so excited right now. It's definitely time for boro to shine... we've finally got the technology.
What troch are you wanting to run with the M-10? I can probably get it tested and give you a play by play if you don't have one close to try. Kristian at Generations has them as well. You're pretty close to him aren't you? If you are, feel free to support him and buy it there. He's a great guy!
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2006-01-06, 12:37pm
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Fire Good!
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Join Date: Oct 11, 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 165
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Would my Lynx work with an M-10 for Boro?
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2006-01-06, 12:44pm
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boro color bender
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Join Date: Jun 06, 2005
Location: The Oregon coast!
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I haven't personally tested a Lynx on it, but I've heard they run it... I'll double check and make sure.
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2006-01-06, 12:48pm
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Satake Woman!
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Join Date: Jun 05, 2005
Location: South Carolina
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I have been moving toward boro because of the color, and the fact that I want to do sculpture and it is more forgiving for that. My colors aren't so great yet, and I'm going to have to find something quieter than the 8M with a premix tip.
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Satake glass in stock and ready for you!
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2006-01-06, 1:01pm
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boro color bender
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Join Date: Jun 06, 2005
Location: The Oregon coast!
Posts: 10,039
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Yeah, premix is loud and really rough on color. I would suggest a Piranha or better yet for sculpture get a Cuda! They are super kind to colors and really affordable for the heat they put out.
The M-10 is probably not enough oomph for a Lynx to run wide open. The M-20 would be a better investment. It's $887, but put's out 10 LPM at 20 PSI. GTT's need higher pressure and are oxy hogs... but I love my Mirage.
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2006-01-06, 1:07pm
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Senior Member
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I have a couple sample packs of boro to play with, one of them is Northstar, I don't know what the other is. I wanted to play mainly at sculpture with it. The biggest main reason why I haven't is scheduling. Right now for soft glass, I push a button and when I'm done for the day I push another button. To do boro with that kiln I'd have to RTFM again and it's written for a total tech-head which I am not.
It's my vague understanding that boro annealing temps are slightly higher right? ANd my soft glass schedule probably wouldn't work?
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Rebecca
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2006-01-06, 1:10pm
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boro color bender
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Join Date: Jun 06, 2005
Location: The Oregon coast!
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I soak my boro at about 1075 and ramp down slow (85 degrees per hour) to 950. Then a short 20 minute soak and off for beads and smaller stuff. What kind of controller is it? Maybe we can get you instructions in plain english... I'm not a tech head either.
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2006-01-06, 1:18pm
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Boldly going
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Join Date: Jun 22, 2005
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Brent,
Just to clear up some confusion. Maybe it's just me, but I wanted to lay a few things out and see if I'm correct.
ABR Imagery has a M-10 (10 LPM, 20 psi) for $800 and a M-5 (5 LPM, 10 psi) for $522.
Generations Glass has a P-20 (10 LPM, 20 psi) for $885 and a P-10 (5 LPM, 10 psi) for $575.
I'm guessing the M-10 is the same as the P-20 and the M-5 is the same as the P-10. They look like the same things.
Are we talking about the same things?
Brent, can you really get a 10 LPM machine for $500+ ?
And to get back to the original thread topic, I work with Boro mostly because it is very forgiving from a heat control perspective. It's so much easier to control and manipulate when I'm making a marble. I love the bold colors of Effetre but it's just so much harder to work with in marble making - but maybe it's just me. I love being able to spend 2-3 hours on a marble and not have to worry so much about it cracking into a hundred pieces. Doing any kind of off hand work is easier with boro for the same reasons, IMO. I also love the colors that can be achieved with boro. The effects of the saturated/striking colors are absolutely unique to Boro.
Hopefully next weekend I'll be able to hook my Lynx up to JCs 10 LPM concentrator. I wanna give it a try, again, before I decide what to buy.
OGSI also has another unit OG-20 coming out. I think it's a 10 LPM, 15 psi oxy generator, not concentrator, but it will probably be at least $2000.
Brad
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2006-01-06, 1:23pm
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Senior Member
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Thanks Brent! It's a West and I don't think plain english is an option. OK, maybe it's just me having blonde moments. I just remembered though if I want to do it (boro) I have another kiln with a SetPro that's easy for me to use, so I'll set it for 1075. Just that number is a huge help. Also if my son ever shows up today with a propane tank like he promised me I can fire up my Wildcat finally!!! Maybe for the virgin run I can melt some of the boro that's been staring at me. This could be fun...where is that kid????
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Rebecca
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2006-01-06, 1:24pm
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ManBearPig
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Location: Roanoke, VA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Smiley
What troch are you wanting to run with the M-10? I can probably get it tested and give you a play by play if you don't have one close to try. Kristian at Generations has them as well. You're pretty close to him aren't you? If you are, feel free to support him and buy it there. He's a great guy!
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I'm actually thinking about our studio. We are going to be running a combination of torches. We are ordering Barracudas eventually, but for now we have 4 Minors. We may add 4 more for the time being until we can afford bigger torches. Or may get a few larger for now, or something.
We had looked into liquid oxygen which is still what we'll end up with when we get larger torches, but I'm trying to explore all my options right now.
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2006-01-06, 1:27pm
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BHB's- big honkin' beads!
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Join Date: Oct 29, 2005
Location: Heartland of America, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, USA
Posts: 445
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I really enjoy working with boro and wish I had more time to play with it but it's everything I can do to keep up with the soft glass part of my business. I think I'm really attracted to the muted, earthy colors and the more free form technics that I've done with it. My soft glass work is very structured and precise, with the boro I can really just let it go. I also blow Simax internal profile tubing into vessels and have had great sales of those products at bead shows. I also think it's much more challenging, stiffer, striking, and the equipment and glass is more expensive and perhaps that's why it's intimidating to the soft glass beadmakers. Hey, grab some clear and a sample pack and go for it!!!
Cheers, Larry
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Larry Brickman
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2006-01-06, 1:35pm
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boro color bender
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Join Date: Jun 06, 2005
Location: The Oregon coast!
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Brad, Generations is selling the M-10 and M-20. I'm not sure where the P-??? came from maybe you got 'em reversed... I haven't checked into what ABR has. The M-10 is a heck of a machine for under $600. It's bsaically the out put of two concentrators at a little higher PSI. The M-20 is about the same volume of output, but at 20 PSI. The M-30 is gonna kick some major butt with it's output and PSI. Hopefully the price too. We'll see.
Chad, if you are looking to run the studio minors, I would probably just hook them up to tanks. they are such a tiny torch and you are looking to upgrade to Cudas... why spend all that money now, when they prolly won't work for you in the future? Just my .02. I know you're like me and just trying to figure out the best possible route. It's a tough choice...
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2006-01-06, 2:00pm
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ManBearPig
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Smiley
Chad, if you are looking to run the studio minors, I would probably just hook them up to tanks. they are such a tiny torch and you are looking to upgrade to Cudas... why spend all that money now, when they prolly won't work for you in the future? Just my .02. I know you're like me and just trying to figure out the best possible route. It's a tough choice...
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Yeah, but I also have a studio at the house, so I can use it there too. I have so much stuff to decide on, who knows what I'll end up getting? It'll be a couple months before I'm ready to buy anything anyways, so I'll change my mind 60-70 times until then...
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2006-01-06, 2:20pm
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FireandFibers
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Join Date: Nov 02, 2005
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I would like to know which one of the concentrators will run a Carlisle Wildcat? I recieved mine yesterday. It is a sweet little torch and so much hotter than the minor I was on. I bought it specifically for my boro beads, (no, they aren't big beads). Anyway, the settings on the torch according to the phamplet says 2-3 for the propane and 5-10 for the oxy. Would I be better going with the M-20, rather than the M-10, seems I would be squeaking by with the M-10....????
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2006-01-06, 2:27pm
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boro color bender
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Elizabeth. The M-10 and the M-20 are about the same output on volume. The pressures are different. The M-20 just pushes hard, which is what some torches need (GTT especially). The number you need to know is how many LPM or LPH your torch consumes... which is liters per minute or liters per hour. Then you will know if the M-10 is enough. The M-10 does 10 LPM or 600 LPH. I hope this helps... it's a bit technical and I wish I knew what the wildcat specs were. It sounds like the M-10 will work, if it recomends 5-10 PSI.
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2006-01-06, 2:28pm
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boro color bender
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmo
Yeah, but I also have a studio at the house, so I can use it there too. I have so much stuff to decide on, who knows what I'll end up getting? It'll be a couple months before I'm ready to buy anything anyways, so I'll change my mind 60-70 times until then...
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Only 60-70 times? I change my mind on what I want my Oxy supply to be at least twice a day... that's why I'm still on these friggin heavy tanks!
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