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| Tips, Techniques, and Questions -- Technical questions or tips |
2007-01-24, 2:10am
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Member
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Join Date: Jan 25, 2006
Location: Belgium
Posts: 82
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Is silver leaf evil?
I have had several beads crack lately and I'm thinking it must be due to the silver leaf in them. They are all about 2" round. Made with shades of amethyst morretti with SIS on top and a Thick amount of clear for encasing. I cool them in vermiculite overnight then batch anneal after removing them from the mandrel. I have noticed the cracks after I cleaned the holes.
Since I haven't encountered this problem before I'm thinking there might be something going on with the silver.
Do you always have to encase silver leaf? Maybe I should try without the encasing?
If there is something already on this forum that can answer my questions please let me know....I've been looking but haven't found anything so far.
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Shadow
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2007-01-24, 2:13am
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Senior Member
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Join Date: May 22, 2006
Location: Grand Junction, CO
Posts: 1,250
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In my experience I have never had silver leaf encased or not cause cracking. I would be thinking thermal shock especially if it is wehn you are cleaning the holes and it sounds like the crack is running hole to hole. Can you rethink the batch annealing and put the beds directly into the kiln?
Jen
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2007-01-24, 2:19am
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Member
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Join Date: Jan 25, 2006
Location: Belgium
Posts: 82
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I don't have a bead kiln so I use my fusing kiln. I did have it on yesterday while I was working and put some beads straight in. They were made with silver leaf using different colors (still morretti though) and I did not encase them...so far they look alright. You could be right about the thermal shock and cleaning...I use my glass grinder so I may have to be more careful with larger beads in general.
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Shadow
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2007-01-24, 2:42am
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Senior Member
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Join Date: May 22, 2006
Location: Grand Junction, CO
Posts: 1,250
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Either way I feel for you, nothing can make a grown woman cry faster than a cracked bead. Good luck!
Jen
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2007-01-24, 5:34am
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Viking Flame Keeper
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Join Date: Jun 13, 2005
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
Posts: 527
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Encased beads are usually a bit more sensitive to being cooled in vermiculite and then batch annealed. Especially if they are 5 centimeters! Wow, that is large!
What brand glass are you using for the encasing? Lauscha really likes to go directly into the kiln.
Do you usually make such big beads with encasing and they turn out fine?
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/Kikki
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2007-01-24, 6:17am
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Join Date: Jan 25, 2006
Location: Belgium
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Quote:
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5 centimeters! Wow, that is large!
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Nah...they aren't that big! I was in a hurry this morning....I meant 2 centimeters not 2 inches! I'm using morretti...I have some Lausha clear but haven't used it yet...can you really mix Lausha and Moretti?
I guess I can keep my fusing kiln on. The inside demensions are 45X45X30 (centimeters). Like I said I used it yesterday for the first time while making beads. It warmed up pretty quick so maybe it won't use too much more electricty than an annealing kiln. (More I know but not too much more I hope.) I just can't have anything fusing when I'm making beads...but...If that's my biggest problem I'm very lucky indeed!!
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Shadow
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2007-01-24, 7:17am
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Viking Flame Keeper
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Join Date: Jun 13, 2005
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
Posts: 527
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LOL! 2 centimeters is a bit smaller!
Have you tried making the exact same bead without silver to see if that bead survives?
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/Kikki
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2007-01-24, 8:50am
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Feb 24, 2006
Posts: 1,168
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i use silver foil in boro and soda lime all the time, never had an issue.
ro
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2007-01-24, 10:08am
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Member
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Join Date: Jan 25, 2006
Location: Belgium
Posts: 82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kikki
LOL! 2 centimeters is a bit smaller!
Have you tried making the exact same bead without silver to see if that bead survives?
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No haven't tried that but I will and I'll let you know how it goes.
BTW Love your signature KIkki!! 10 kinds of people....  binary ...I'm so proud! I actually got that one!!
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Shadow
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2007-01-24, 1:42pm
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Gravity is at 6 o'clock
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Join Date: Jun 06, 2005
Location: Jerusalem, Israel
Posts: 7,906
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delana, you don't need a different kiln for fusing or for annealing beads, as long as you have a controller for it so tha the temp doesn't go too high (the first time i got to anneal beads, not in my kiln, that kiln didn't have a controller, when it reached temp we had to open the lid every minute for 30 minutes to keep the temp "constant". wtf?!? it wasn't constant!!!).
my kiln is primarily an annealer (front loading), but it was made to be a fusing kiln too, i just never used it as such because i still don't have propper ventilation for that.
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NY
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2007-01-24, 2:08pm
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as in the state
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Join Date: Feb 05, 2006
Location: Yuma, CO
Posts: 1,428
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Delana--
My kiln is one that was originally for fusing (I have a Paragon Caldera 8x8" with digital controller) but I bought the optional bead annealing collar that went with it. The other kiln I have for fusing is a much smaller one (6x6" Evenheat HotBox with manual controller), but also comes with an optional bead annealing collar. When you stack your kiln it goes bottom, then bead annealing collar, then main kiln body, then lid. It's much like the optional height collars for fusing projects, only it has a door you can flip open to pop your mandrels in when you're done. They're great!!
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2007-01-24, 2:35pm
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Member
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Join Date: Jan 25, 2006
Location: Belgium
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Quote:
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delana, you don't need a different kiln for fusing or for annealing beads, as long as you have a controller for it
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Quote:
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My kiln is one that was originally for fusing
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Ok you guys stop it!! If my husband reads this (and he never will) I'll never get my chili pepper!! 
Seriously I've always thought that using my fusing kiln for annealing would be wasting electricity and driving up the utility bills. I've had a rethink and I'm pretty sure that my kiln (while larger than most annealing kilns) will not use that much more electricity. I mean when I consider the extra price of a new annealing kiln....how long will I need to run the kiln I have now to make the purchase of another kiln justifiable? (Don't tell me if you know different....ignorance is bliss....I just wanna make beads and be happy in my own little world!)
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Shadow
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2007-01-24, 3:41pm
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as in the state
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Join Date: Feb 05, 2006
Location: Yuma, CO
Posts: 1,428
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Here's my theory....if you save the cost of a chili pepper kiln if you have a kiln that will work (and not cost that much more to run, really), look at how much more glass you can buy!!!
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2007-01-24, 4:42pm
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The Glass Smithy
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Join Date: May 07, 2006
Posts: 1,529
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow Darner
It warmed up pretty quick so maybe it won't use too much more electricty than an annealing kiln. (More I know but not too much more I hope.)
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When you batch anneal your beads, the beads and kiln have to warm up slowly, like over an hour or so, to 960 degrees. If you don't have the slow warm up period you will thermal shock the beads. This is the importants of having a controller, to controll the warm up, soak, and cool down.
Jerry
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2007-01-25, 10:31am
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Gravity is at 6 o'clock
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Join Date: Jun 06, 2005
Location: Jerusalem, Israel
Posts: 7,906
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow Darner
Seriously I've always thought that using my fusing kiln for annealing would be wasting electricity and driving up the utility bills.
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it depends on its size, not on being or not being a fusing kiln on top of being an annealer.
it just uses as much electricity as it needs to heat up, and then to maintain hot, so there's no reason why a fusing kiln would need more electricity to reach the same temp as an annealer (hence my controler reference).
the only thing that will make the electricity consumption vary is the size of the kiln- bigger kiln, more electricity to reach and to keep the same temperature.
i know how much it costs me to operate the kiln once (i can't say "per hour" as an hour while it heats up costs much more than an hour while slwoly cooling down obviously, so i know how much it is for the total). the total cost of the kiln for me was what it would cost to operate it for 413 cycles. so unless your fusing kiln is really huge, i don't think it jutifies another kiln.
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NY
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2007-01-26, 6:01am
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Member
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Join Date: Jan 25, 2006
Location: Belgium
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Quote:
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so unless your fusing kiln is really huge, i don't think it jutifies another kiln.
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Yea...this is what I'm thinking now too....I mean an annealing kiln sitting right next to my work station would be nice but being able to get more use out of the kiln I have already makes sense even if it may use a bit more electricity and I have to get up and walk (oh poor me) to the kiln every time I finish a bead. I'm happy for your input!!
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Shadow
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2007-01-26, 9:49am
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Gravity is at 6 o'clock
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Join Date: Jun 06, 2005
Location: Jerusalem, Israel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow Darner
Yea...this is what I'm thinking now too....I mean an annealing kiln sitting right next to my work station would be nice but being able to get more use out of the kiln I have already makes sense even if it may use a bit more electricity and I have to get up and walk (oh poor me) to the kiln every time I finish a bead. I'm happy for your input!!
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if i make big beads or vessels, i find that it's good to me to get up and walk to the kiln (i sometimes make beads and vessels that take around an hour and a half each...), and when i'm making small beads i stick them in the vermiculite and batch anneal so i don't have to get up after each bead, waste time walking there and back, waste electricity each time i open the kiln's door just for a small bead... a cycle of batch annealing uses less electricity than having the kiln on while you work (plus, you can stick many more beads inside). i've learned to recognize which of my beads should go directly to the kiln, and which ones i can batch anneal.
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NY
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2007-01-26, 10:13am
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Feb 24, 2006
Posts: 1,168
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i recently bought a kiln for fusing only so i didnt tie up my other i use hot daily when i work, i had stopped fusing so the kiln was available. of course i tried my first project in it last week and it had an error code 1, bad element or something, so my brand new aim sits, still no fusing, i called and emailed aim for what to do from here, but of course i havent heard back yet. i should have got another paragon!
ro
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2007-01-27, 10:38am
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Gravity is at 6 o'clock
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Join Date: Jun 06, 2005
Location: Jerusalem, Israel
Posts: 7,906
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oh, i so want to start fusing glass in my kiln!!! i bought a kiln that's a fusing kiln too and not just an annealer especially for that, about a year ago already, but i haven't used it for fusing yet!!!
can you believe that i've been working out of my mom's stained glass studio that's full of sheet glass for 2 months already, and i haven't melted any of it yet???
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NY
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