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  #1  
Old 2010-11-17, 7:38am
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Default Is there a torch comparison chart?

I've tried using the search, but get tons of hits & end up getting lost in them.

It was suggested to me that I look into the Minor, but now I'm wondering about all the other torches I hear mentioned in here. I'm wondering if there is a chart somewhere that lists the pro's & con's, uses, etc. for the various torches to help me figure out what I should be looking to get.

I've only had less than 5 hours total time, made a total of 11 beads, all on a hot head so far: so I'm a newbie for sure, and pretty confused!
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Old 2010-11-17, 8:28am
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I always wanted a chart like that as well Eileen, but I think you'll find that so much of lampworking is both subjective and individual. What one person likes another person doesn't and what works on a torch for one person just doesn't for another. My wife uses a minor and loves it. I don't really like using it, but I like using our Cricket which she finds too hot. The best thing to do if you can find a way to do it is find someplace that has the torches you're interested in and use one for a little bit. You'll see if they will work for you and your style. I stayed confused when I first starting do this and honestly if you get a minor, it's a huge step forward from a hothead and you'll probably really love it. The torch journey takes some time. Good luck.
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Old 2010-11-17, 3:23pm
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So is this kind of like car shopping, many "sub compacts", lots of "SUV's" or trucks, etc.?
I guess I may have to just throw a dart!

Thanks!
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Old 2010-11-18, 10:04am
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I suggest you look into what kinda glass art you are going to doing, If you're looking for something just for bead making talk to people who really make beads. You want to move past that and lets say get into the big boy stuff like sculptures, talk to some people who work that. Personally me and my wife at first ONLY wanted to make pendants and beads, but this changed rather quickly and now are looking forward to making a wide range of glass art. My wife says if you take a class (If it's available in your area) that you might find what you are looking for. It's always best to get something a little bigger than what you are going to use it for, chances are you will want to move past what you want to use that torch for making. Just keep this in mind, the bigger, or better, comes MANY more cost that you may not see right away. You have to buy oxygen or a con then hoses, and ohhh don't forget the vent, ohh and glasses, the glass of course and the tools and etc...

Me and my wife started on a HH (hothead) and wanted to move toward a national. That changed from a national to a GTT Scorpion, then we wanted a foot pedal, a large oxygen concentrator, oh and the vent system, the studio space, don't forget the kiln. We in the end spent about $10,000 in a year. (I want to spend $50,000 on a glass studio and I don't care) We're not trying to scare you, I'm just telling you the truth, we are going into production and needed to spend the cash to make it happen. You may be into just a hobby and needless to say, you won't have to spend that much.

Just prepare for the cost when looking to upgrade from your torch, there is a lot of different things out there and you might wanna research first. I would start at Sundance, they make a very good point in showing you what torch does what. Then when you find out what you wanna work, research and find out everything you may need. Here is a link to their website that pulls a chart down of what kinda work you can do and what kinda torch will do it, just know as I said you may wanna do a lot of research on whatever you get. Personally I would recommend a GTT cricket, but I have a love for the GTT craftsmanship (not there delivery time).

http://www.sundanceglass.com/lg.htm
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Old 2010-11-18, 8:03pm
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Thanks for the input. I did take a class, and may sign up again after the end of the year, but all there are to use in it are HH's. I'll do more reading at Sundance, I hadn't gone deep enough to see that they give a kind of outline of each torch, so I'll be sure to go reading.
I've done so little right now that I don't know how much more I'll want to try, LOL!
Good luck to you & your wife with your venture. I'm retired, and don't want to get so busy with this that it becomes a job, but I hope that the two of you have a successful business!
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Old 2010-11-19, 5:50am
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Eileen, there is a group of glass beadmakers that meet in central Florida. They are the Florida Glass Dragons. You might want to contact them and go to one of their meetings to familiarize yourself more with what is available. They are a wonderful group and very friendly and helpful.

As far as what torch, as has been said, it is a highly individual thing, plus it has to do with your budget also. The Minor is a workhorse and once you have one and more experience you can determine more the direction you want to go. Also, used torches are easily sold, so you can get some of your investment back to put into your next torch, should you decide you want something different.
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Old 2010-11-19, 6:59am
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If you're looking to buy a torch, I too would endorse the minor burner, or rather the mega minor, which has a bit more oomph than the regular minor burner with only a (cough) minor bump in cost...The minor burner in either version is indeed a workhorse, and as a first dual gas torch it really can't be beat. You can work soft glass or hard glass - and even make goblets or ornaments with it (with some patience), as well as marbles in soft glass or boro, although 3/4"-1" is probably the maximum thickness of borosilicate you'll be able to keep hot enough to work with any speed (patience again!). I have a 2-stage torch which I use to work boro, and the flame I use the most is the center fire, which is very similar to the minor burner.

As Pam mentioned, torches are easily sold and if kept in good condition you will not lose much of your initial investment.

If you'd like to play with some of the torches, a great idea is to attend one of the Glass Dragon's meetings or functions. They are having a holiday party December 11th in Cocoa, at Ron & Rocio Bearer's home - and open torch (They have 8-10+ torches set up in their teaching studio, including 2 Bethlehem barracudas) is always a large part of the festivities, as well as Demonstrations by artists from the well-known to the obscure. http://floridaglassdragons.com/meetings.html for details. It is open to all, but I believe there is a $10.00 fee at the door if you're not a member.

And just so you know, if you decide to stick with the hothead for now, I made and sold beads for years working on a hothead, and there are many many artists much more accomplished than myself who still work exclusively on a hothead. Spending a lot of money for a bigger torch, plus regulators, hoses and all of the rest that comes along with it will definitely expand your horizons but it is NOT mandatory, particularly while you're still learning - but there will be a bit of a learning curve if you decide to change later.
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  #8  
Old 2010-11-19, 3:34pm
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Thank you Pam & Chris. Lots of good info, and much to think about. I'm going to give the meeting some thought and see if it would be workable for me. I'd love to see some of the posters here "in action", and it sounds like a lot of fun, just quite a drive. I've finally noticed that I can subscribe to threads, so I can find this easier when I want to read through it all again too.

My head is stuffed with quilting stuff today, spent it renting a long arm machine for the first time to quilt a project that has been waiting almost 2 years, and had a slow start but got it quilted, yea! Now to trim and bind, and it will finally be finished & DH can use it! LOL!
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Old 2010-11-20, 7:26am
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Eileen, where are you in Florida? Perhaps there are people in your area that would be willing to let you see their torches in action, so to speak. Although I have to say that going to the Glass Dragons meeting would give you the best information.
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Old 2010-11-20, 7:55am
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Great advice here! I spent a year on a hothead and then upgraded to a cricket. I was fortunate enough to be able to go try out several different torches which really helped me make an informed decision. But as several other people have mentioned, the torch itself is actually the least expensive part of the whole operation sometimes lol.
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Old 2010-11-20, 3:06pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pam View Post
Eileen, where are you in Florida? Perhaps there are people in your area that would be willing to let you see their torches in action, so to speak. Although I have to say that going to the Glass Dragons meeting would give you the best information.
I'm just north of Tampa, on the west/central side of the state.
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Old 2010-11-20, 3:07pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverRiverJewelry View Post
Great advice here! I spent a year on a hothead and then upgraded to a cricket. I was fortunate enough to be able to go try out several different torches which really helped me make an informed decision. But as several other people have mentioned, the torch itself is actually the least expensive part of the whole operation sometimes lol.
And it sounds like you're happy with your decision too, which is always good! I did think about just ordering the HH, and at least I could be doing something with the rods I've got other than fondling them (carefully!)
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Old 2010-11-20, 4:02pm
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Eileen, I know that there are at least a couple of people in your area and I am sure there are more. If you get in touch with the Florida Glass Dragons or the ISGB, they should be able to give you info about people in your area, or at least give them your info.

Buying a HH torch now is a great way to get started. Very low cost and you can decide whether it is really something you want to continue doing. Unfortunately, it is pretty expensive to set up lampworking area in your own home with an oxy/propane torch. I used to tell my students that they should plan on spending $1000 to get started. That would cover torch, kiln, some tools, bead release, glass, regulators and oxy and propane.

With a Hot Head you can probably get away with about half that, or close.
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Old 2010-11-21, 4:09am
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You've brought up another point.

I have a pottery kiln that I also use for fusing, and I've been assuming that I could somehow use it for annealing, putting the beads in together after I have a torching session (maybe bringing the temp up AFAP and then turning the kiln off to cool slowly?).

I'm wondering if anyone does this, or if I'm going to need to get a small kiln just for beads.

PS. I have a pyrometer, but no digital controller. I just watch the temp & flip switches as needed.
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Old 2010-11-21, 6:30am
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What you will need is a different controller for your kiln. Turning off a kiln is not annealing. Annealing is the slow controlled cooling of glass. If you turn your kiln off it cools very, very fast at first, then slows down when it gets closer to room temperature, and that is exactly opposite of what you need for annealing glass.

You have several options, do-it-yourself instructions are available, purchase a set-point controller or a digital controller (my favorite as you don't have to babysit the kiln for hours).
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Old 2010-11-21, 2:20pm
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Thanks! The kiln holds heat OK if I flip usually one switch (there are 4 in my kiln) back on as needed. watching the temps, so I can do that, I shouldn't have said turning off without mentioning that I do turn it back on if it's cooling too fast. I guess I need to look up a chart to see how to anneal beads & how long they need to stay at what temp, then do the same eagle eye thing for the beads (& make sure I've got my book, & timer ~ so I remember to look at the temp every 2-3 minutes ~ & chair all ready to kiln-temp-sit!)
My main concern is that the kiln is about 100 feet away from where I'd be torching, so I would have to have a session at the torch putting them in (undecided as yet, but maybe the micro bead stuff), then take them to the kiln at the end of the session I think.
I'll do some searching for threads on annealing to see what I can find.
Thanks again!
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Old 2010-11-21, 2:50pm
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If you're in Tampa, the party in Cocoa on Dec 11 is a great opportunity to meet the bead people and play with torches, like I said. I'll be there - and I drive from Fort Lauderdale (3+ hours), it's well worth it for the company of like-minded people. Just about anyone there would is happy to share their experience.

I don't think a pottery/fusing kiln is going to be optimal for you... To anneal your beads, the glass needs to be reliably held at the correct annealing temperature for a specific amount of time which is related to the thickness of the beads - bigger beads need to be held longer. Best practice then is to slowly (50 degrees or so per hour) lower the temperature to the strain point of the glass, hold there for a time, and then ramp down to ambient at a speed which varies according to the type of glass you're using.

You pretty much need a digital controller to do that correctly. You can sort of manage it with an infinite control switch, a pyrometer and a lot of practice but you'll still be see-sawing the temperatures a lot more than a digital controller - and glass hates that, so it will often express it's indignation by cracking.

I would strongly suggest that you look into a small glass kiln as your next investment even if you decide to go with the hot head torch. The Chili Pepper is an excellent bead kiln, it's also highly portable and runs on household 120 volt current so you don't have to have special outlet installed - but there are many others (I have a paragon bluebird, for example).
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Old 2010-11-21, 8:29pm
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Thank you so much. I'll have to see if I can wrangle my calendar to fit a trip across to Cocoa in, sounds like fun.
I've just done a search on kilns, and I think I'd better wait a bit, since I'm replacing my car tomorrow (unless things change or don't work out) so the $$ may be needed elsewhere right now, but I'll keep it marked to check back in a while.
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Old 2010-11-24, 7:47am
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GO TO THE PARTy IN COCOA !!!
Meeting that group of people was the single best thing I have done for my glass career!
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