Do glassworking students have any rights?

[MikeAurelius]

Sorry, Mary, but I respectfully disagree. Anyone who does not put the safety of students over profit, is not a good studio owner. She may be a good person, she may have a heart of gold, but she has a responsibility to her students: their safety. If she cannot provide a safe studio, then in my opinion, she should not have her studio available for teaching. If she wants to work in an unsafe studio, that is HER business, and I really don't care what she does to herself. I do care when innocent people who don't know any better are put at risk because she either does not have the money or is unwilling to do the work to make her studio a safe place for students.

Look -- it is the LAW. It is national code. Any studio that has propane inside, doesn't use ventilation is breaking the law. It really is that simple.

No one should be supporting this -- they should be helping them get legal. Is it that hard to comprehend?

[Mr. Smiley]

Originally Posted by MikeAurelius

Which part of this do you not understand? This means things like forklifts, mobile cranes, etc. It does NOT mean the tank under the table because it would cost too much to plumb it in. The NFPA sets a very high bar for "impractical".

And who said ANYTHING about calling up inspectors and getting studios shut down. I think you are putting words in my mouth and words on paper that I've never written.

Slow down and back off a bit.

You have said something to that effect. No, I'm not going to go find it...

I know of several studios that have permission to have a tank INSIDE. Yes sir, that's right... fire marshall... code enforcement... both said it was OK. Were they not doing their job properly? I dunno... but I guess it does make it official... and legal, since the NFPA has set the rule with a loop hole or left room to wiggle and the government employees in charge of making those calls had their say so.

All I'm saying is that a wall of shame and any other threat to a studios livelihood is unnecessary and the wrong approach if you want to make things better. IMHO The ISGB could offer a grant of some sort to studios that want to upgrade to a safer environment. Somebody as passionate about it as you Mike could do what you said... put safety before profits and start a company to design and install safety measures at cost. It's a whole lot easier to tell somebody else they should do the absolute right thing by your standards and go without any profits for a while... isn't it? I mean if you are so sure there is an immediate need and people are at risk... do it. Action speaks much louder than words... kind advise along with a helping hand is normally well received.

[Mr. Smiley]

Thank you Kimberly for finding it.

[MikeAurelius]

Originally Posted by kimberly

You did, Mike.

Actually, Kim, I said they SHOULD be shut down. I never said that I would call the inspectors, which is what Brent is indicated I said/wrote.

[MikeAurelius]

Originally Posted by Mr. Smiley

You have said something to that effect. No, I'm not going to go find it...

I know of several studios that have permission to have a tank INSIDE. Yes sir, that's right... fire marshall... code enforcement... both said it was OK. Were they not doing their job properly? I dunno... but I guess it does make it official... and legal, since the NFPA has set the rule with a loop hole or left room to wiggle and the government employees in charge of making those calls had their say so.

All I'm saying is that a wall of shame and any other threat to a studios livelihood is unnecessary and the wrong approach if you want to make things better. IMHO The ISGB could offer a grant of some sort to studios that want to upgrade to a safer environment. Somebody as passionate about it as you Mike could do what you said... put safety before profits and start a company to design and install safety measures at cost. It's a whole lot easier to tell somebody else they should do the absolute right thing by your standards and go without any profits for a while... isn't it? I mean if you are so sure there is an immediate need and people are at risk... do it. Action speaks much louder than words... kind advise along with a helping hand is normally well received.

Actually Brent, it does NOT make it ok. Believe what you want, but an inspector/fire marshall's interpretation is just that, an interpretation. Insurance companies think very differently. I've spoken with several inspectors who first passed an inside 20# propane tank, and when the NFPA rules were made known to them, went back and changed their inspection practices. Very many inspectors don't know crap about propane (or don't care), they are more concerned with wind loads and snow loads and footing depths etc...a 20# propane tank is barely on the awareness meter. And as for fire inspectors...well, I've run across both kinds, and it is far better (and safer) to get one that knows and cares than one who signs off on whatever the studio owner tells them.

Just because someone doesn't want to drill a 1" hole in a wall doesn't make it impractical.

And actually, Brent I do offer consulting services at no cost whatsoever. Anyone who e-mails me or calls me, will get help with what they need done. I've been doing this for at least 5 years, maybe longer. The only thing the person pays is for materials.

[Moth]

Originally Posted by MikeAurelius

Is it that hard to comprehend?

I suggest you not talk down to people, Mike. It isn't becoming.

[Mr. Smiley]

I've seen some of those calculations and well, I'm not going to get into that with you in this thread... maybe never. It's just not worth the headache. Took me over a year and a lot of effort to show you how your math was flawed on another safety subject... then nothing was done about it anyway... at least not that I've seen.

You are right... it IS up to interpretation... and your litmus test for what's right is the insurance companies opinion? The people who get to save money by saying it wasn't ok?

Life involves risk... I'll almost guarantee that most of the people in this industry drive or ride in a vehicle. We've had plenty of "actual" serious injury to lampworkers due to this practice... and we aren't checking the lug nuts on their cars now are we?

[MikeAurelius]

That wasn't directed at you Mary. That was a general statement to anyone who isn't getting the "it's the law".

[MikeAurelius]

Brent, there's been one death of a lampworker already, that has been partially attributed to poor/non-existent ventilation...are you saying it's ok to have more? At what point do we say enough is enough? 10? 20? 50?

Just wondering where your threshold for unnecessary injury/deaths is...

[Mr. Smiley]

No, I'm not saying it's OK to have more. I'm just saying that there isn't any reason to go to the extremes you seem to feel are necessary. I'm saying that standards have to be practical... not perfect. I'm saying that the industry does regulate itself quite nicely and any more improvements should be handled with suggestions and education... not threats and blackmail. Of course, that's just my opinion... do what you want.

[MikeAurelius]

Fortunately/unfortunately the insurance companies drive a lot of what we do...but actually, the law is the law. If an inspector chooses to ignore the provisions of the law and allows an installation, the responsibility then falls on the studio owner. If someone gets hurt or killed, the insurance company steps in...and if the the studio does not meet code by the insurance company interpretation (and you can damn well bet it will be the strictest one), then they don't pay, the insurance gets cancelled, and the studio owner ends up in a shit load of hurt.

The inspector is usually a government employee and as such has protection against litigation even if he/she screws up and makes the wrong interpretation.

[Mr. Smiley]

Self regulation is when people have freedom to choose where they spend their money. They have the freedom to spend their money on instructors that do their job well. They have the ability to not go back to a place where they had a bad air experience... they are free to just walk right out of a class and never come back. They are free to tell their friends about their good and bad experiences... and the good folks will hopefully prosper while the truly substandard studios will struggle to survive for lack of return customers. It's not like there's a ton of money to go around in this industry and it's been my experience that you can't do a half assed job and be truly successful... I know some people who are doing a darn fine job and they are still just getting by.

Are some folks going to slip through the cracks and breath a day or two of unhealthy air in a new or uninformed studio? Yeah... maybe... but in time hopefully with enough awareness, that will get better. It will never absolutely go away... just human nature to do things without being properly informed. I have never been to a studio that had toxic air... ever. I have always monitored the air quality myself and would absolutely shut down the torches if it got bad... that's self regulating, because I don't know a single teacher that would work through a situation like that. I just don't like the bullying to get it done to your standards... I know you believe what you teach about ventilation and other safety issues... I can respect that without believing it has to be that perfect. You are free to impose what ever standards you wish on yourself and in your studio... and maybe we'll be looking at certifying studios on a volunteer basis some day. I just hope others get involved with discussing the standards that need to be met for certification.

[Dennis Brady]

It's almost always necessary to balance the ideal "what should be done" with the realistic, "what can be done". Safety is great, but it's easy (and not uncommon) to take safety to unrealistic extremes. Probably the only way to always be perfectly safe is to wrap yourself in heavy layers of cotton wadding and never ever leave the safety of your home. Businesses use the term "calculated risk". Individuals might not use that term, but they practice it. Every time we do anything, we take a "calculated risk".

Only in a police state can there be sufficient control to ensure regulations are enforced perfectly and universally. We don't live in a police state so we have to settle for teaching safety instead of enforcing it.

[Wiley]

This is just a curiosity question...

Jewelry studios work with many of the same materials/tools that we do ie torches, propane/oxy torches, etc. Many times I have been in a jewelry store that offers repairs and I have seen large propane and/or acetylene tanks indoors.

Welding shops/garages also use much of the same equipment.

Honestly...just curious as to why it is "ok" for them and not for us. I mean, they fall under all the same codes...right?

Just thinking out loud...I was in a jewelry store the other day picking up a piece...

[Dennis Brady]

Originally Posted by Wiley

This is just a curiosity question...

Jewelry studios work with many of the same materials/tools that we do ie torches, propane/oxy torches, etc. Many times I have been in a jewelry store that offers repairs and I have seen large propane and/or acetylene tanks indoors.

Welding shops/garages also use much of the same equipment.

Honestly...just curious as to why it is "ok" for them and not for us. I mean, they fall under all the same codes...right?

Just thinking out loud...I was in a jewelry store the other day picking up a piece...

Perhaps their local regulations provide the same exemption as my community?

Propane tanks can be inside if they are strapped to a wheeled device (like a fridge dolly).

I suggest before everybody makes the assumption they are prohibited from having their tanks inside, they check with their local fire inspector. They may be pleasantly surprised to learn that the same rules that apply to oxy-acetylene rigs apply to propane.

[Wiley]

My husband is a General Contractor here in NM...he has told me that in different situations it is OK to have tanks inside *shrug*

I honestly don't know.. when I have read links to different codes ... to me they seem to have conflicting information.

I don't know...I think a lot of it comes down to common sense and ones comfort level with safety. I mean for example in this thread and being a student at different studios re ventilation. I agree that a studio should provide the best possible environment; the teacher should be aware of where they are teaching but the student has a responsibility as well. Even if they do not go on the internet there are a lot of books out there...

[Moth]

Originally Posted by MikeAurelius

Sorry, Mary, but I respectfully disagree. Anyone who does not put the safety of students over profit, is not a good studio owner. She may be a good person, she may have a heart of gold, but she has a responsibility to her students: their safety. If she cannot provide a safe studio, then in my opinion, she should not have her studio available for teaching. If she wants to work in an unsafe studio, that is HER business, and I really don't care what she does to herself. I do care when innocent people who don't know any better are put at risk because she either does not have the money or is unwilling to do the work to make her studio a safe place for students.

My issue was not with a studio's safety practices...my issue was with your shame list.

You seem to lean toward painting studio owners as people who are only interested in making a profit. My argument was that sometimes, that isn't the factor that drives a person. Sometimes, they are just trying to make something available to a group of people who otherwise might not be able to experience it. Those people do not deserve to be posted on some internet shame list.

Frankly, I don't think anyone there would care whether they were on that list or not.

As it was already posted by someone else...there is a whole huge world of glass going on outside the internet realm and a fair share of them couldn't care less what we do on here.

edited to add:
Education is something that crosses realms. You learn it online and pass it on through classes...they tell their friends and so on. I don't see myself going into a class and telling people, Mike has a shame list, I've printed it out for you to read so you don't ever go to any of these studios or take classes from any of these teachers. Word of mouth between students about their own personal experiences is much more efficient.

Safety topics..ok..I'll hand those out happily...I'm not gonna trash others.

~~Mary

[Norskiglass]

I'm looking at various arguments,disputes,"people pointing",ignoring the truth......and several have just fallen off the trail of the ACTUAL thread.

~I just was given 4 tickets to a live comedy show tonight and low and behold I was already having a laugh of my own.

[Cosmo]

Originally Posted by Wiley

My husband is a General Contractor here in NM...he has told me that in different situations it is OK to have tanks inside *shrug*

I honestly don't know.. when I have read links to different codes ... to me they seem to have conflicting information.

I don't know...I think a lot of it comes down to common sense and ones comfort level with safety. I mean for example in this thread and being a student at different studios re ventilation. I agree that a studio should provide the best possible environment; the teacher should be aware of where they are teaching but the student has a responsibility as well. Even if they do not go on the internet there are a lot of books out there...

I discussed this very topic with someone who was one of the building inspector in our city. He said that some businesses are allowed to have propane inside because of the number of exits they have, and the belief that a business will have more traffic, and therefore more opening doors, than a house, which would help alleviate any built up propane if there was a leak. He said he still wouldn't recommend anyone keeping a tank inside, but said that if it were kept inside that they would probably allow it here for a business.

Mine is outside, by the way...

[Mr. Smiley]

I don't think this is out of the scope of the origional question... it's part of the equation... a little side ways maybe, but attached.

As far as the original question goes... the students already have those rights. They can walk out if those guidelines aren't met... and they can even ask for an immediate refund. Perhaps they won't get it... a solution is already in place to settle such disputes. It's called small claims court in the US. With the level of compliance I already see in the industry to safety issues, I see no need for any other governing/regulating body... but education is always a good thing.

I think the conversation evolved because there is a disagreement about who sets the standards and how they are enforced.

[Wiley]

Thanks Cosmo

I'm sorry if I side-tracked the topic...

[Norskiglass]

Originally Posted by Mr. Smiley

As far as the original question goes...

I think the conversation evolved because there is a disagreement about who sets the standards and how they are enforced.

The local building and code enforcement is who applied the labels to my hard line system "APPROVED". The fire marshal required a "hot working permit" to allow the 10-12 stations to be actively working glass. The propane tank is located outside as well as the liquid tanks and it was really convenient and affordable to plumb in considering the nearest location to store the tanks so happens to be 100'+ from the studio. (that is a LOT of copper)

[CorriDawn]

[evolvingBeau]

Originally Posted by Mr. Smiley

Self regulation is when people have freedom to choose where they spend their money. They have the freedom to spend their money on instructors that do their job well. They have the ability to not go back to a place where they had a bad air experience... they are free to just walk right out of a class and never come back. They are free to tell their friends about their good and bad experiences... and the good folks will hopefully prosper while the truly substandard studios will struggle to survive for lack of return customers. It's not like there's a ton of money to go around in this industry and it's been my experience that you can't do a half assed job and be truly successful... I know some people who are doing a darn fine job and they are still just getting by.

Are some folks going to slip through the cracks and breath a day or two of unhealthy air in a new or uninformed studio? Yeah... maybe... but in time hopefully with enough awareness, that will get better. It will never absolutely go away... just human nature to do things without being properly informed. I have never been to a studio that had toxic air... ever. I have always monitored the air quality myself and would absolutely shut down the torches if it got bad... that's self regulating, because I don't know a single teacher that would work through a situation like that. I just don't like the bullying to get it done to your standards... I know you believe what you teach about ventilation and other safety issues... I can respect that without believing it has to be that perfect. You are free to impose what ever standards you wish on yourself and in your studio... and maybe we'll be looking at certifying studios on a volunteer basis some day. I just hope others get involved with discussing the standards that need to be met for certification.

Exactly... Adults with free choice.. I don't think there is a question that people in general would prefer a safe environment.
Mike I think it's awesome that you provide the detailed info that you do when it comes to ventilation and saftey, I think you're truly doing your part. But nobody responds well to strong-arming, and the wall of shame thing isn't necessary IMO.
I'm pretty sure that it's unhealthy to worry about things that are beyond your control. In the here and now we do the best we can with the information we have at the time.
Leading from the front means that you do the best you can and forge ahead headstrong and confident of your beliefs, acts and values, the act of doing so inherently inspires others to follow your example.
Turning around in your own path to smack around the people behind you not only slows them down and puts them off, it slows you down and dilutes your efforts as well.
Liberate yourself from the responsiblity of the entire lampworking communities well-being. If tragedy strikes it won't be your fault for not scolding them enough. I don't know about everybody else but I take responsibility for myself, my health and my actions.
Lampworking students certainly have rights, but it is a wholistic responsiblity to decide what these are and uphold them in a balanced way.
Anyway...I probably didn't need to add another post but I did.
My dad always told me to take care of my own side of the street and let everybody else worry about thiers..just trying to impart that mentality a bit here.
There are "oportunitites" to share knowlege with others where it will have the greatest effect due to situation and context otherwise it tends to be a lecture that blows off with the wind.

[Mr. Smiley]

Originally Posted by Norskiglass

The local building and code enforcement is who applied the labels to my hard line system "APPROVED". The fire marshal required a "hot working permit" to allow the 10-12 stations to be actively working glass. The propane tank is located outside as well as the liquid tanks and it was really convenient and affordable to plumb in considering the nearest location to store the tanks so happens to be 100'+ from the studio. (that is a LOT of copper)

That's awesome! Great job... I've seen pictures and you're studio seems to be a model for what everybody should strive for. You have set a shining example and you should be proud.

[Norskiglass]

Originally Posted by Mr. Smiley

That's awesome! Great job... I've seen pictures and you're studio seems to be a model for what everybody should strive for. You have set a shining example and you should be proud.

I think the message there is "public studios" can take note and see that it very well can be done.

~now if I could only get self cleaning windows for the gallery

[NLC Beads]

Originally Posted by MikeAurelius

Well, here's the problem...you see, ventilation CAN be retrofitted to almost any studio, if the owner decides that student safety is more important than profits for a short period of time. I absolutely refuse to believe that profits are more important than following the law, much less providing a safe workplace for students to learn...

And really, you would actually put your health in possible jeopardy to take a lesson from someone? Really?

1. It's not profit that drives her, it's sharing knowledge. The intermediate class is 6 hours for (I believe) $75. There's not a lot of profit there.

2. Yes, I would, I'm looking forward to the class. If need be, we'll open windows and add fans - which I understand is not correct ventilation, but it's the best we can do at this location.

Originally Posted by Moth

I said in my very first posts that education is the key...not 'enforcement' or whatever one would call it.

I have been to the studio where Nikki teaches. The owner is an awesome lady trying to offer in-demand classes to an area that would not support a full-time glass studio. I doubt she is making a whole lot of money from it...seems to me she is filling a need. She has an artist's heart. It would take thousands of dollars to ventilate that old building and she keeps her prices so low it would take a decade to recoup that money. If a teacher or student chooses not to go there based on that, it is their decision. I don't think what this lady is doing earns her a spot of SHAME on anybody's list.

I have studios that I would not teach in again, for sure. But the one Nikki is referring to is doing the best they can. If it were a full-time glass studio, raking in $500 per student per class and still not doing regular upgrades or improvements to safety...that is crummy, but that is not what it's about.

This example is the reason I'm not liking the whole 'let's be regulators' thing.
~~Mary

Thank you, Mary.

I explain ventilation to all beginning students, I'd happily speak one on one with them about it also. I have talked with the studio owner, and it just isn't feasible to do there right now. She's about sharing knowledge and teaching people what they are passionate about, she finds teachers when students approach her for a number of classes and is a wonderful caring soul.

Originally Posted by MikeAurelius

Sorry, Mary, but I respectfully disagree. Anyone who does not put the safety of students over profit, is not a good studio owner. She may be a good person, she may have a heart of gold, but she has a responsibility to her students: their safety. If she cannot provide a safe studio, then in my opinion, she should not have her studio available for teaching. If she wants to work in an unsafe studio, that is HER business, and I really don't care what she does to herself. I do care when innocent people who don't know any better are put at risk because she either does not have the money or is unwilling to do the work to make her studio a safe place for students.

Look -- it is the LAW. It is national code. Any studio that has propane inside, doesn't use ventilation is breaking the law. It really is that simple.

And I respectfully disagree with you.

The studio teaches primarily with 1# MAPP gas and Hot Heads. No propane violations there.

I understand ventilation, and safety, and keeping propane outside, please don't misunderstand me on that.

Would I prefer that they have proper ventilation? YES. Is it possible right now, given the economic status of the area I'm in and the studio? No. Do I think she should be shunned or shamed for trying to bring knowledge to people who want to learn? No - and that's apparently where we part ways.

Corri, great comic, thanks.

[pam]

Nikki,

I wanted to tell you that I think what this woman is doing is great, and I fully understand where you are coming from. None of the flameworkers I know would want to destroy something that is obviously working for you and the people in your area. This woman, from what you have said, seems only interested in helping people who want to learn to make glass beads. Make the best of it: add fans, open windows and doors, and take frequent breaks. If there is enough interest in the area to warrant it, then someone (maybe you) will eventually build a glass studio with a proper ventilation system, or perhaps do something to retrofit her building. Make sure your students get the best possible education with regard to safety and every other aspect of glass beadmaking, which it seems you are doing already.

It would be nice if this was a perfect world and a perfect glass studio would spring up in each of our neighborhoods, but that doesn't happen very frequently. Studios cannot just be built on the presumption of students to fill the classes and help someone recoup their investment. The amount of interest has to be determined in any area before a studio is outfitted with all the latest, greatest equipment. I think what you are doing is finding out about the interest in your area, and I think that is great.

Again, as has been said many times in this thread, education is key. And good luck to you with your classes.

[NLC Beads]

Pam, thank you for understanding...

[Paul Ewing]

There is a large difference between Acetylene and Propane as a fuel source. Propane is much more dangerous because it is heavier than air and pools instead of dissipating in the air. There was a large explosion in a building in I think Chicago a few years ago caused by a jeweler's tank. The city since then has been much stricter on the small jeweler's studios there. I'll have to look up the article later.