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| Tips, Techniques, and Questions -- Technical questions or tips |
2008-12-26, 2:15pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asil4
As far as hostility is concerned- you might want to ask Sarah where hers has come from, as I saw a great deal of it directed at others before I ever posted in this thread.
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Are you joking?!
Remember your very first post in this thread? I do. Pam responded to it, I said nothing but "ditto" to Pam's post, and you responded by attacking me.
Since then, just about every one of your posts in here has been, in my mind at least, way-over-the-top angry and aggressive, and studded with insults and attacks. However, I have been trying to ignore that. I have been trying to address all the issues you appear to want to discuss and to answer all your questions. Instead of actually responding to the points I'm trying to make, as one would do when trying to have a discussion, you have been taking every single word I say (not to mention the things I didn't even say) and trying to use it to make me look bad, while ignoring my actual responses, questions and requests for clarity.
Please, quote me on that "great deal of hostility". If you can't do that, then please stop accusing me of nonsense. Thank you.
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2008-12-26, 2:18pm
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I'm a lilac!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jensy
Kalera I am not changing my request just asking for CLEAR outline. People dont want to guess what the author is meaning. If they dont mind you selling the exact beads they say it. Dont say I dont care what you do BUT.........
Jen
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Why? If they don't care what you do, make your own mind up about the rest of the wording. If they are of the opinion that it might be a pitfall to copy their beads, do some market research to try to discover whether that would be true in your case. Maybe you want to sell at a local fundraiser, and there's no way any such potential pitfalls would apply.
Should tut authors refrain from sharing their opinions because you don't want to have to THINK?
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-Kalera
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2008-12-26, 2:19pm
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I personally think Jen had every right to start this thread and I think there are those tut writers who will change what they have done in the past because of this thread. Others choose not to change and that is entirely up to them. They are the writer and have the option of deciding for themselves how they want to handle the situation. I think all this was said on about page 5, or somewhere like that.
I really would love it if we could all come to a concensus regarding what is technique, style and design. I think that would also help everyone, as stated in post 772 in this thread. So, I would be really interested in having some input from those posting or reading this thread.
Below is a picture of one of my beads and I am using it because I think it is fairly simple to determine. I would define this bead as follows:
Techniques - hollow mandrel-wound bead, stretched glass using centrifugal force with encased flowers, with added details of front and back legs, wings and spikes
Style - sculptural/dragon
design - Light green opaque dragon having spikes of transparent turquoise with tips of each spike in transparent pink. Flowers in opaque blue, pink and white scattered over the body of the dragon. Dragon has turquoise lips and wings of turquoise and pink.
Anybody want to give it a try?
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Pam
"It is easier to perceive error than to find truth, for the former lies on the surface and is easily seen, while the latter lies in the depth, where few are willing to search for it." Johann Wolfgang Von Goeth
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2008-12-26, 2:20pm
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I'm a lilac!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asil4
Wait a minute. You don't own any tutorials and you don't know what they say inside, yet, you have vehemently and repeatedly posted that they DON'T say something specific?
Good grief!
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I know a lot of tut authors, and I believe that they're not lying when they say they did NOT state that people cannot sell the beads made from their tuts.
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2008-12-26, 2:23pm
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I'm a lilac!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jensy
Kalera I am not changing my request just asking for CLEAR outline. People dont want to guess what the author is meaning. If they dont mind you selling the exact beads they say it. Dont say I dont care what you do BUT.........
Jen
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Is it possible that the author actually means exactly what they say? That they don't mind at all, however they are aware of a few potential pitfalls so they don't want to flat-out encourage you to copy, because they don't want to be responsible for leading their customers on what *they consider* to be a potentially poor path?
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2008-12-26, 2:24pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynn Burgess
I don't know if anyone else thought that yellowbird was adding to the definition of hyperbole that Deb offered. That was my take on it and if that is so, Kalera you are way out of line. It's people like you that keep people like me from posting. Yes, yellowbird has only 228 postings compared to your 4,193 some odd post. I have less than that even though I have been a member over 3 years now. So I guess if one hasn't been in the discussion from the beginning, they have no business in the discussion at all? Even if they thought they where being helpful. Maybe you should make a list of rules so us lurkers will be more inclined to speak if we know when its o.k. I apologize for going off topic, but your comment Kalera pissed me off.
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Thank you .Lynn
Actually I was posting at the same time Deb was. Explanation and joke .
If you don't think it's funny that's okay with me if you have a problem understanding I can't help that. I'm not taking this quite as seriously that does not mean that I don't have the right to speak or that I'm trolling. I have ask a legitimate question and you jumped on me now you are calling me names what's next Sarah ? I'm not giving up my sense of humor and I have no problem with your aggression or anger it's your right.
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2008-12-26, 2:25pm
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caffiene, beads, bedhead,
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Pam, I just want to make that dragon mine
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2008-12-26, 2:26pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jensy
Well now , that isnt very to the point is it. Hmmmm I dont care BUT hmmm I have more interesting thing to do than help you , hmmmmm you might be called a copier, hmmmmmm, hmmm , hmmmmm.
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Did you read that thing I said earlier, about misinterpretations?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jensy
Then to also know that one time started her own thread about someone copying her, she started a thread on not wanting to be emailed because she is toooooo busy.
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I have been completely open and honest about those two threads, and neither of them had ANYTHING to do with tutorials (other people did make the second one about tutorials, among other things, but as you can clearly see, that was not what my original post was about).
Quote:
Originally Posted by jensy
Really then she tries to derail the topic in here,
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Yeah, right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jensy
accuses people of lying because this tut doesnt exist,
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Does it? Prove it! At this point, why should anything be assumed according to your interpretation of it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jensy
twists people words around ( such as with me in PMing her)
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Squid said you had mentioned in the thread that the tut writer in the original post was not me, I replied to her by saying you were keeping that private (as you, yourself, had stated in the thread numerous times) and that I was going to respect that.
ANYTHING else you think happened is YOUR OWN INTERPRETATIONS and I really don't know where those are coming from anymore.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jensy
Hmmmm I wonder why she is the brunt.
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2008-12-26, 2:27pm
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Don't dis The Cheese
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Pam, I'm not seeing a picture- am I missing something?
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It takes a lot more "faith" to believe that man did all of this all by himself than it does to believe that he had help.
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for something you are not. ~Andre Gide
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2008-12-26, 2:27pm
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I want to repeat: There is no way anyone can identify a tut author if you were to post the exact wording from the tut that you think tells you not to copy.
So far, not one tut author besides Laurie has stated that there is anything in their tut that could even be misread to sound like that.
Many tut authors have stepped forward to say that their tut doesn't say anything like that.
I don't think Jensy was wrong to start this thread, I don't even think it's a terribly unreasonable request to put out there... but calling for a blacklist of tut authors who won't comply seems terribly unreasonable to me, especially since no one seems willing to prove that the alleged problem even exists in the first place.
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2008-12-26, 2:31pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yellowbird
Thank you .Lynn
Actually I was posting at the same time Deb was. Explanation and joke .
If you don't think it's funny that's okay with me if you have a problem understanding I can't help that. I'm not taking this quite as seriously that does not mean that I don't have the right to speak or that I'm trolling. I have ask a legitimate question and you jumped on me now you are calling me names what's next Sarah ? I'm not giving up my sense of humor and I have no problem with your aggression or anger it's your right.
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I'm not angry. I'm just debating a point.
I have a pretty twisted sense of humor myself, but I really don't see why it's "funny" to bait Sarah. If you get a chuckle out of poking at people to see if they get upset, there's really only one logical conclusion.
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2008-12-26, 2:31pm
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Carpe Beadum
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sarah_hornik
I was sincerely hoping that someone from the "opposing side" would have the balls to step up and say that while they may agree with the points Vena is trying to make, they don't find personal attacks acceptable. That sure would have gained them a lot of respect points, at least from me. I do not see this as being about "sides", but I was obviously deluding myself.
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*sighs*
Once again, it's quite clear to me that Sarah has taken something I've said and commented about it in a public way. While she may have meant that towards multiple people, it seems directly related to a statement I made to her when we were PMing.
I said something to the effect that I thought some posts weren't as polite as I had hoped to see in a public thread, and while I might agree with the points that person was trying to make, I often disagree on principle if I don't like how they're saying it.
However, that doesn't mean that I have to interrupt the discussion at hand to point that out. It also doesn't mean that I think only one person on only one "side" has said things in a rude way, or even said things in a way that belittles their original point. If I chose to point out one, I'd feel compelled to point them all out, and I also feel that's not relevant to the tutorial related topics that we were discussing, which is what this thread should be about.
The difference with this post, is I felt the need to respond to a post I read as being directed at me. So, sorry for adding yet another post that is not about the lampworking topics.
And for what it's worth, I think if the tone of a post is rude, hostile, or even overly confrontational, it isn't as effective at conveying your point as one where you're trying hard to stay polite. The same is true of posts where someone exaggerates or overstates what was said in order to make their point. That, however, is just how I feel about it.
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Disa
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"In dreams we pass into the deeper and more universal truth." Carl Jung
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2008-12-26, 2:32pm
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Don't dis The Cheese
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalera
... but calling for a blacklist of tut authors who won't comply seems terribly unreasonable to me,
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Has someone done this? I've read the entire thread and I don't recall seeing that. Can you point to where someone called for blacklisting of tutorial authors for any reason?
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~Lisa
It takes a lot more "faith" to believe that man did all of this all by himself than it does to believe that he had help.
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for something you are not. ~Andre Gide
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2008-12-26, 2:34pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamMuse
Once again, it's quite clear to me that Sarah has taken something I've said and commented about it in a public way. While she may have meant that towards multiple people, it seems directly related to a statement I made to her when we were PMing.
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No, Disa, I did not have your PM in mind at all when I wrote that and your post is a bit of a surprise to me. Sorry.
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2008-12-26, 2:35pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalera
I'm not angry. I'm just debating a point.
I have a pretty twisted sense of humor myself, but I really don't see why it's "funny" to bait Sarah. If you get a chuckle out of poking at people to see if they get upset, there's really only one logical conclusion.
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that's a pretty big if Kalera .
I know that you have a sense of humor .
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2008-12-26, 2:38pm
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Mom to 20 paws
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sarah_hornik
Did you read that thing I said earlier, about misinterpretations?
jen-YES
I have been completely open and honest about those two threads, and neither of them had ANYTHING to do with tutorials (other people did make the second one about tutorials, among other things, but as you can clearly see, that was not what my original post was about).
jen-Did I say they had to do with tuts? NO It goes to show what you have done in the past so why should we think or ttry to interpret what you are saying, because your actions show us clearly.
Yeah, right.
jen-You should have been a politician.
Does it? Prove it! At this point, why should anything be assumed according to your interpretation of it?
jen-My dear young girl , when someone says they are going to keep their integrity for the other person it does not mean they break it under any circumstances, even public scrutiny or pressure.
Squid said you had mentioned in the thread that the tut writer in the original post was not me, I replied to her by saying you were keeping that private (as you, yourself, had stated in the thread numerous times) and that I was going to respect that.
jen-No Sarah I am referring to you making it sound like I didnt want to reply to you and in that very post you saying no one could be talking about your tuts when I just finish telling you in a PM about others PMing me about your tut.
ANYTHING else you think happened is YOUR OWN INTERPRETATIONS and I really don't know where those are coming from anymore.
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Jen
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Etsy jewelry-
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2008-12-26, 2:42pm
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See my quote!!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ever After
Pam, I just want to make that dragon mine
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Me too - it's gorgeous!!
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Michelle
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2008-12-26, 2:42pm
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Mom to 20 paws
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Ooops thought my answers were going to be in blue , crap sorry.
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2008-12-26, 2:55pm
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Don't dis The Cheese
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShellyD
Me too - it's gorgeous!!
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I can see the pic now. It is gorgeous. I have one of Pam's beads and it's one of my all time favorites. They are gorgeous!
__________________
~Lisa
It takes a lot more "faith" to believe that man did all of this all by himself than it does to believe that he had help.
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for something you are not. ~Andre Gide
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2008-12-26, 2:56pm
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Senior Member
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ever After
Pam, I just want to make that dragon mine
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Thank you, Laurie, and Shelly. I'm sorry some of you can't see it. I'm not sure why.
So, somebody take me up on it. Give it a go, tell me what I did is not right!! Let's get some positive energy going. These are things that we need to have a uniform definition of.
ETA: glad you can see it now!
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Pam
"It is easier to perceive error than to find truth, for the former lies on the surface and is easily seen, while the latter lies in the depth, where few are willing to search for it." Johann Wolfgang Von Goeth
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2008-12-26, 2:57pm
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See my quote!!
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Don't think I've ever seen a Pam bead until now. Wow!!!
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Michelle
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2008-12-26, 2:59pm
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Lisa, Jen - I can't argue with misinterpretations, non-existent hidden meanings, pointless insults or photos of violins. I'm done now, with both of you.
When someone asks me a question, I try to respond. When someone challenges my opinions, I try to explain them better. You know, discussion. I'll gladly keep having this discussion with anyone who treats me with the same respect.
</personal issues>
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2008-12-26, 2:59pm
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Don't dis The Cheese
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Okay, now that I can see the picture- Pam- I'm on the same page with you about style, design and technique as it pertains to that bead.
What that also reinforces to me is that those definitions applied to a particular bead are also being mis-applied.
Do artists have ownership/copyrights to a "style" of bead?
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~Lisa
It takes a lot more "faith" to believe that man did all of this all by himself than it does to believe that he had help.
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for something you are not. ~Andre Gide
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2008-12-26, 2:59pm
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Ass-kicking Cephalopod
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sarah_hornik
Okay, but why do you think there is so much secrecy around this tutorial? Maybe it does exist - I can't say for sure that it doesn't - but so far, no writer has stepped forward and said they are the one who wrote those words (besides Laurie who was clearly referring to something else), no reader besides Jen is willing to publicly say that they read those words - why? If the words are there, then what are people afraid of?
I remain skeptical.
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I don't think it is a secret so much as not wanting to hurt the author's feelings. I sincerely doubt every beadmaker is even reading this thread, author or not, tutorial purchaser or not. I don't really see it as debatable anyway - if someone interprets something they read that way, then that is what it means to them. Arguing that they are wrong does not change their perception - and in this case, they are not the only one with that perception.
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2008-12-26, 3:00pm
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See my quote!!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pam
Thank you, Laurie, and Shelly. I'm sorry some of you can't see it. I'm not sure why.
So, somebody take me up on it. Give it a go, tell me what I did is not right!! Let's get some positive energy going. These are things that we need to have a uniform definition of.
ETA: glad you can see it now!
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I'm up for a challenge but not sure I would ever do that baby any justice.
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Michelle
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2008-12-26, 3:02pm
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Senior Member
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pam
I really would love it if we could all come to a concensus regarding what is technique, style and design. I think that would also help everyone, as stated in post 772 in this thread. So, I would be really interested in having some input from those posting or reading this thread.
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The difference between technique and design is clear to me, but the word "style" can be confusing. Do we mean "style" as in "that artist's style", or as in "sculptural" etc.? Maybe there should be two separate terms for these.
Love the dragon! 
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2008-12-26, 3:03pm
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Carpe Beadum
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Posts: 1,793
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sarah_hornik
No, Disa, I did not have your PM in mind at all when I wrote that and your post is a bit of a surprise to me. Sorry.
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ugh
since I must have misinterpreted, I apologize. I'm sure you can see that the similarities in the sentiments, compounded by being so soon after I sent that message, it was an honest mistake.
I'm not trying to argue, not even in my previous post. I'd like to be able to remain on topic. I think it's a better discussion.
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Disa
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"In dreams we pass into the deeper and more universal truth." Carl Jung
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2008-12-26, 3:10pm
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Jan 24, 2006
Location: Israel
Posts: 1,330
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamMuse
ugh
since I must have misinterpreted, I apologize. I'm sure you can see that the similarities in the sentiments, compounded by being so soon after I sent that message, it was an honest mistake.
I'm not trying to argue, not even in my previous post. I'd like to be able to remain on topic. I think it's a better discussion.
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PMed again.
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2008-12-26, 3:24pm
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Jan 24, 2006
Location: Israel
Posts: 1,330
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Quote:
Originally Posted by squid
I sincerely doubt every beadmaker is even reading this thread, author or not, tutorial purchaser or not.
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I know that, but it's been two weeks or so now (or has it? I have a bad sense of time) and people have come forth and said just about everything else, so I would think this would have had to come up at some point.
But like I said, I can't say for sure either way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by squid
I don't really see it as debatable anyway - if someone interprets something they read that way, then that is what it means to them. Arguing that they are wrong does not change their perception - and in this case, they are not the only one with that perception.
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I don't think it's about arguing about perception, but about understanding what the actual problem is, if there is one. There's an argument going on about whether this text is restrictive or not and whether it requires a disclaimer, and that is impossible to determine right now because few people know for sure what that text is.
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2008-12-26, 3:25pm
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Jun 15, 2005
Posts: 2,251
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asil4
Okay, now that I can see the picture- Pam- I'm on the same page with you about style, design and technique as it pertains to that bead.
What that also reinforces to me is that those definitions applied to a particular bead are also being mis-applied.
Do artists have ownership/copyrights to a "style" of bead?
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In my opinion, no, copyrights are to a specific bead. For instance, I could claim a copyright on that particular bead, but if the next dragon I made had daisies instead, and was blue instead of green, and the spikes and wings were yellow, then the copyright would not apply to that bead. Of course, I would then have a new copyright, assuming I published it somewhere.
As I said, my bead is kind of easy because it is so definite. I picked that one made quite a while back because it was really simple. If I were to write a tutorial on that particular dragon and people used the tutorial and made that dragon with each flower in the exact same spot and each color exactly the same, then it would be a copy (which, btw, I wouldn't have a problem with). However, the likelyhood that anyone could make the exact same dragon is infinitely small. More than likely their dragon may have the same colors, or at least start out that way, and perhaps the color flowers would be close, but exactly in the right spots? I couldn't even do that!! Would the spikes be exactly the same number? Would the length and width be the same? Almost impossible. They would more than likely take what I wrote and make their own dragon, which would be the reason for the tutorial!
Sarah, I agree, "style" can be confusing. Any suggestions for another term? I could call the style "hollow bead". I could call the style sculptural or I could call the style dragon. What are other styles?
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Pam
"It is easier to perceive error than to find truth, for the former lies on the surface and is easily seen, while the latter lies in the depth, where few are willing to search for it." Johann Wolfgang Von Goeth
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