Diamond Clear incompatibility?

[Hayley]

Originally Posted by PolychromeBeads

I hate to throw a monkey wrench into this discussion, but a while ago when I got some TerraNova I encased it with Vetrofond "super" clear - and they all cracked in exactly the same way. I anneal at 950, with a very slow ramp down.

I have done TerraNova beads recently with Diamond clear (all I'll use now), with no cracking issues. The Diamond clear I have was from Paula at FlameDame (when she had the odds on sale earlier this year).

Of course, with all of this handmade glass there are sure to be variances.


Aimee

Aimee,

I agree that handmade glass does have some variances. I also understand that silver glass can be finicky. . . just as silver foil and leaf can be. Most people (like myself) have found that Diamond Clear is the most compatible with silver glass, thus that's our clear of choice for a long time.

What troubles me is not that a batch Diamond Clear (recent batch so yours from Paula early this year probably is fine as are my many batches from last year) is not compatible with some silver glass - or Vetrofond Super Clear in your case (or maybe it's TN that's not compatible with VF) . . . what troubles me is that Olimpia was using ALL Effetre and Diamond Clear and the beads were cracking.

[JavaGirlBT]

I just checked the test bead I made yesterday and no cracks yet.

[Olimpia]

Yes, I was using nothing but Effetre glass and DC, the batch was recent, from two different suppliers. As you might imagine with my beads I go through a lot of clear, so most of my clear is pretty recent. Besides I also mark each batch separately, this way I keep track of where they came from and when I bought them.

I repeated the beads, with the exact same color combo, exact clear to color ratio, exact bead size, exact schedule, with Effetre Super Clear, they did not crack.

Some cracks took up to a week to show up....

It is important to remember, I can use any batch of Diamond Clear with any other of my beads without problems, just this particular design.

[lenora]

Ok Traci! Wake up!!! I'm dying to know if your beads from yesterday survived.

[tracidawn78]

Ha, I'm up! I'm up!

So far the test beads HAVE survived. However, I used a different rod of diamond clear than the previous night since I used that rod all up, and there's less DC on these beads than the ones that cracked. I'll keep an eye on them and see if anything happens.

[LisaF]

I am having the same issue. Because they look like thermal cracks to me, at first I thought I was letting the beads get too cool before putting them in the kiln. Then I made sure to keep them good and hot. I would say that 50% of mine are cracking like this. DC over DH (Aurae and another one) with effetre and CIM bases underneath. It would be great to get to the bottom of this because the glasses are SO PRETTY!!! I'm going to run some test beads today too.

[PolychromeBeads]

Originally Posted by tracidawn78

Was it the original TerraNova, TerraNova2, or the newly released TerraNova 2.1?

Sorry! It gets confusing when there are so many versions!! I was using TerraNova2, I am out of it so I need to order some 2.1 now...

I just think we need to remember that there are so many variables here we cannot just flat out say "X glass is incompatible". As Olimpia's experience shows, a glass can work fine for all but one use. Certain combinations can be troublesome, often due to viscosity problems rather than true coe incompatibility.


Aimee

[LisaF]

Aimee, you are right. That's why if we all work together we might be able to figure out exactly what is going on.

[Olimpia]

Oh that is so sad Lisa!
You should try the same color combo but top with a clear other than DC.

This bead has DH and DC but it didn't crack, none of my DH beads crack unless they are the Frozen in Time beads (avatar bead)

One thing I am doing, and the reason I am doing is that all the rods of DC that I had classified as unacceptable due to bubbles and scum, is using them all with great results. This bead is the product of one of the "unacceptable" stash.

I heat the rod tip, pull it off. Then I heat a rather small gather, it will start boiling and scumming and at this point I would toss it. Now I cool it and reintroduce it, and do this a couple of times. I apply it to the bead relatively soft but not soupy. Once on the bead I can heat it up really well.

So these beads do not show much scum or bubbles and they do not crack:




PS I mention this because someone with a better understanding of Physics and Glass Chemistry than me can make some smart conclusion out of this.

[tracidawn78]

When and where did you get your DC, Lisa?

Originally Posted by LisaF

I am having the same issue. Because they look like thermal cracks to me, at first I thought I was letting the beads get too cool before putting them in the kiln. Then I made sure to keep them good and hot. I would say that 50% of mine are cracking like this. DC over DH (Aurae and another one) with effetre and CIM bases underneath. It would be great to get to the bottom of this because the glasses are SO PRETTY!!! I'm going to run some test beads today too.

[AKDesigns]

Oh Lisa! That's so sad.....

[LisaF]

Traci - I got it several months ago from Ron and Rocio.
I just got a couple more pounds form them too that I haven't even opened. So I will be trying that new batch today.

Amy - Thanks for your sympathy. BTW, I don't know if you saw my note to you the other day, but I know a great place in Elk Grove that repairs and services sewing machines.

[Hayley]

Originally Posted by PolychromeBeads

Of course, with all of this handmade glass there are sure to be variances.

Originally Posted by PolychromeBeads

I just think we need to remember that there are so many variables here we cannot just flat out say "X glass is incompatible". As Olimpia's experience shows, a glass can work fine for all but one use. Certain combinations can be troublesome, often due to viscosity problems rather than true coe incompatibility.

I am confused, Aimee. Are you suggesting that since there are so many variances, when our beads crack due to incompatibilities that we should just accept that it's part of working with glass?

I can surely understand that in the case such as ASK - some of the colors would crack when encased so we stopped encasing a lot of the ASK colors.

But this is a CLEAR glass we are talking about. I don't think it's out of line to expect that the CLEAR we use is compatible since we rely on a good, compatible clear to encase.

ETA: . . . and especially Diamond Clear! Most of us rely completely on DC with our silver glass for so many years. I, for one, would like to get to the bottom of this for it's not just having cracked beads. It's wasting a lot of very expensive silver glass along with them!!!

[Hayley]

Lisa - glad you posted yours (sad those beauties cracked!). . . I can understand that once in a while, we might have one bead crack due to thermal but not all four! The crack on the bottom one, with the jaggedness around the twist, doesn't look thermal shocked.

[LisaF]

Thanks, Haley. I'm off to work on some test beads now. Will report again tomorrow how they turn out.
BTW - those beads in the picture were not all from the same torch day.

[AKDesigns]

Originally Posted by LisaF

Amy - Thanks for your sympathy. BTW, I don't know if you saw my note to you the other day, but I know a great place in Elk Grove that repairs and services sewing machines.

Thanks Lisa...I did see that. I'll keep it in mind in case I do decide to pull out my machine.

[PolychromeBeads]

Originally Posted by Hayley

I am confused, Aimee. Are you suggesting that since there are so many variances, when our beads crack due to incompatibilities that we should just accept that it's part of working with glass?

Oh goodness no!!! I was trying to point out that you can have a single combination that just won't work together, and that even if you change one variable of the combination to make it work you can't label that glass as "incompatible". I have no problem with saying that certain batches of DH glasses may be incompatible with certain batches of Diamond clear, I just want to caution against a blanket label of "incompatibility".

It's like when I hear people talking about how Effetre alabasters and opalinos are "incompatible". So untrue! It's a matter of degree.

On the other hand, I think it's very important that this information is out here and we can all talk about it. We need to be as informed as possible on the technical aspects of our materials.


Aimee

[Hayley]

Thanks for clarifying that, Aimee. . . as you know, I am easily confused! lol!

I can see if it were some silver glass that were incompatible with Diamond Clear but as Olimpia used only Effetre . . . that's what really concerned me!

Moreover, it seems to be dependent on the ratio of Diamond Clear to other glass used . . . so trying to "guess" as how much DC to use leaves way too much to chance, imho.

[likes to make glass stuff]

...or...perhaps...folks are letting the base bead get too cool before encasing it, leaving a small thermal crack that is appearing under the stress of cleaning. The vast majority of those cracks are thermal. It's a striking glass being used for the base of nearly all of them. To strike glass, you cool it then heat it. If you overcool it, it cracks. then you encase the cracked bead, which causes your clear to crack.

Seems more logical than "it's only a bad glass when worked with this particular style", although lengthy working of glass can change its COE, I have read.

Thermal cracks=too cool at some point.

[Hayley]

Originally Posted by likes to make glass stuff

...or...perhaps...folks are letting the base bead get too cool before encasing it, leaving a small thermal crack that is appearing under the stress of cleaning. The vast majority of those cracks are thermal. It's a striking glass being used for the base of nearly all of them. To strike glass, you cool it then heat it. If you overcool it, it cracks. then you encase the cracked bead, which causes your clear to crack.

Seems more logical than "it's only a bad glass when worked with this particular style", although lengthy working of glass can change its COE, I have read.

Thermal cracks=too cool at some point.

Olimpia and I had worked on this for over a week to figure it out . . . her beads were NOT due to thermal crack.

"This particular style" has a HIGH ratio of Diamond Clear to Effetre which we think is what created the incompatibility cracks. As in if you used too much furnace glass frit (Reichbach 96 for example) with your Effetre . . .

If "lengthy working of glass can change its COE" . . . then ALL my beads should have cracked! lol!

[tracidawn78]

Originally Posted by likes to make glass stuff

...or...perhaps...folks are letting the base bead get too cool before encasing it, leaving a small thermal crack that is appearing under the stress of cleaning. The vast majority of those cracks are thermal. It's a striking glass being used for the base of nearly all of them. To strike glass, you cool it then heat it. If you overcool it, it cracks. then you encase the cracked bead, which causes your clear to crack.

Seems more logical than "it's only a bad glass when worked with this particular style", although lengthy working of glass can change its COE, I have read.

Thermal cracks=too cool at some point.

I understand what thermal cracks are, and I can assure you that is not the case with me, at least. I'd been working on that set all week, and every bead from earlier in the week made with Vetro or Moretti clear were fine. The entire batch made with DC cracked. I didn't do anything different at all except use DC instead of the other clear. I didn't ever let the base of TN2.1 get cool, I encased it while it was still burning hot. You can see the swirls of it as the clear moved it around while I encased it.

[likes to make glass stuff]

Originally Posted by Hayley

Olimpia and I had worked on this for over a week to figure it out . . . her beads were NOT due to thermal crack.

"This particular style" has a HIGH ratio of Diamond Clear to Effetre which we think is what created the incompatibility cracks. As in if you used too much furnace glass frit (Reichbach 96 for example) with your Effetre . . .

If "lengthy working of glass can change its COE" . . . then ALL my beads should have cracked! lol!

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck, don't you think?

Incompatibility cracks don't run in line down the hole of the bead, parallel with the mandrel, over and over again. The reason they go all over the place is because the glass is shrinking at a different rate as it cools, causing wild cracks every which way. One spot there cools and shrinks more than the glass over it...*crack*. A bit here does the same thing *crack*. Get enough, the lines connect and you have a pile of broken glass. A bit less, and you just have a bead with crazy cracks all over the place.

When I've used too much 90-96 coe frit, I get crazed cracks. Not parallel to the mandrel.

When I've been striking a base and cooling it too much, or just letting the core get too cool, then encasing, I get thermal cracks. Parallel to the mandrel. I've been doing this for years, too. It's easy to let a striking glass get too cool-I'd never imagine myself to be above making a simple error. It happens-to all of us.

The boro manufacturers and workers know that overworking a glass can cause changes in it. I'd imagine that applies to soft glass, too.

Have you contacted the manufacturers of the glass to get them to verify your incompatibility theory? I've never used Diamond Clear, btw, I just can't watch this go on without being a lone voice in the wind...."cracks parallel to the mandrel are thermal".

[likes to make glass stuff]

Originally Posted by tracidawn78

I understand what thermal cracks are, and I can assure you that is not the case with me, at least. I'd been working on that set all week, and every bead from earlier in the week made with Vetro or Moretti clear were fine. The entire batch made with DC cracked. I didn't do anything different at all except use DC instead of the other clear. I didn't ever let the base of TN2.1 get cool, I encased it while it was still burning hot. You can see the swirls of it as the clear moved it around while I encased it.

Maybe the diamond clear takes a wee bit longer to get hot enough to encase, thus allowing your core to crack while you heated it?

[tracidawn78]

As I said before, look at the pictures. The TN2.1 was drooping hot as I encased it. It never left the flame. Look at the swirls and how the DC picked it up and moved the TN2.1 around with it as it encased the base bead. The TN2.1 was never cool at any point on these beads. The TE-256 beads, yes, I allowed those to cool a bit to strike some more, but not the TN2.1.

[likes to make glass stuff]

The pictures look like classic thermal cracks.

[tracidawn78]

Originally Posted by likes to make glass stuff

The pictures look like classic thermal cracks.

Does this?
(please forgive the cat hair)

[tracidawn78]

Here are some results from my test beads.

Nothing I made last night cracked. I used a different rod of DC, and I also didn't use as much as I did on the cracked beads, and I used different base glasses.

I did try to recreate the Hades/TE-256/encased w/ clear beads. The bottom two are from Friday night w/ DC which are both cracked, and the top two are from yesterday with Moretti clear, neither cracked. All 4 beads were worked exactly the same way.

[likes to make glass stuff]

Take a step back. Look at those beads. Imagine that you didn't make them. What would you call the cracks? Go at it that way.

[tracidawn78]

And yes, I understand that they mostly look like thermal cracks. They might actually BE thermal cracks. I'm not saying I'm above thermal cracks by any means. However, the beads made that day were made exactly, and I mean EXACTLY, the same way that all the beads were made the previous days in the week. The only difference was the clear used. I can see losing 1, maybe 2 beads to a thermal crack from admiring it. But to lose every single bead you made that day, with the only difference being the clear? There's something about the diamond clear that I'm not getting, whether it be incompatibility, I didn't work it long enough, I worked it too long, I didn't anneal it hot enough/long enough/ramp down slow enough. There's something different about this glass that I'm not used to which is the point of my original post. That's why there's a question mark in my title, because I don't understand which variable of all this is causing the problems. If my problem is thermal cracks, then great, I just need advice on what I need to change to avoid it. However, your theory of my base bead being too cool is completely inaccurate. To imply that every bead is "just" a thermal crack and to dismiss everything laid out here by me and everyone else that has experienced problems like this with DC really shows that you didn't read the entire thread and are trying to stomp on a known issue for some unknown reason.

[ejralph]

I think assuming that all cracks along the mandrel must be thermal is not necessarily a good idea.

I have noticed on round beads with thicker encasement, incompatibility often makes them crack that way. For me at least. Just go encase some moretti thickly with some bullseye and see how it cracks.

If I encase thin and there is a compatibility problem, the cracks will usually creep around the bead, but if the casing is thicker, it is nearly always along the mandrel.

Emma