What is Devardi glass???

[Carolyn M]

I feel exactly the same Kalera. I don't contribute to humanitarian charities and then turn around and buy from a company that is in all probability selling product made by bonded workers, possibly children.

[Kalera]

Originally Posted by kathleen milligan

Kalera doesn't 'throw out negative insinuations'. I find her posts to be carefully composed, thoughtful and tactful, founded on information to the best of her knowledge.

In this case, though I don't speak for her, it's possible that she may regret having mentioned finding someone who had more information, because she can't reveal who that is without their express permission. She has integrity.
She isn't withholding information just to protect herself- it's not the same thing. And she wouldn't fabricate it. That's ridiculous.

Thanks Kathleen! And yes, I DO regret sharing what I'd been told... in the future I won't. The pictures on Dev Overseas's own website tell a pretty grim story on their own, and the only information that was truly new was what they told me backing up that Dev Overseas does not use children under 14 for labor.

[DesertDreamer]

Originally Posted by Kalera

WTF.

I asked them whether they could provide more information about the factory. I asked them if they had toured it. I asked whether they had their assurances of no child labor from the factory management, or from an independent third party who had toured it. I did NOT ask for the name and address of the factory.

You need to stop conflating everything everyone else has asked of them in this thread and pinning it on me.

Kalera's quite correct on this. She wasn't in on the initial "inquisition" that was going on, and asked some calm, considered and sensible questions when she started participating. Just sayin.

I've looked at the Dev Overseas workshop pictures. They're not the best-quality pix, but I don't see anyone who is absolutely, positively a child (16-ish or younger). The overall conditions aren't great, but I've seen pix of similar arrangements in Eastern Europe and Mexico for bead making and glass blowing.

[Kalera]

Originally Posted by DesertDreamer

Considering neither of them STARTED the thread, that's absurd. Unless we're going to start a full-blown conspiracy theory now.

Kalera, I did say "if" because I didn't know it was your sister who called at that point, or whether anyone had actually called. My apologies.

About selling and customer queries. Do/would you give them exact details or tell them the glass is made in Italy, Germany, etc? I'm just thinking country of origin is sufficient.

Initially I tell them as much as I think they want to know. If my answer is too vague, they continue asking more specific questions, and yes, I have been asked whether my glass comes from environmentally/socially conscious sources. I probably tell 80% of people who ask more than they wanted to know... I'll tell people they can go to the Bullseye factory and watch them make glass!

I'm not hiding anything. Most of my glass suppliers will happily talk about the factory their glass comes from, and I (and many others) have been invited to Italy and Germany to tour the factories.

[miahawk]

I don't regret bringing up questions about safety. considering how much crap people get over setting up their studios without doing the proper research, for being considered idiots when they damage their eyesight by not using the right protective eyewear, then the possibility of brain damage or death from improper ventilation, hearing damage from loud ventilation, etc. I'm stunned that because it's happening in a factory overseas, safety is not a concern.

[Lizabeads]

Squid...

I guess they could be getting censored for deleting posts. All I know is that I was told by them they are being censored. All their posts have to be approved. I guess they were told that. I'm very disapointed in the decision on this. Seems to me the wrong ones are being censored. After all they are the ones that were being attacked and now THEY are censored?
I admire Daniel for defending his wife for whatever reason he feels it necessary. I can only imagine how they feel and what LE looks like to them. This has nothing to do with whether or not I will play with the glass. Is there harm in playing with the glass until we know more? I think not.

[debkauz]

How did this get form a thread about the glass and working conditions to a 'let us now shred Kalera's ass' thread? Kalera has asked a lot of reasonable questions and I, for one, appreciate what she's done. Because of how Daniel and Natasha handled their responses to questions asked, I won't be buying any of their glass.

[Kalera]

Originally Posted by DesertDreamer

Kalera's quite correct on this. She wasn't in on the initial "inquisition" that was going on, and asked some calm, considered and sensible questions when she started participating. Just sayin.

I've looked at the Dev Overseas workshop pictures. They're not the best-quality pix, but I don't see anyone who is absolutely, positively a child (16-ish or younger). The overall conditions aren't great, but I've seen pix of similar arrangements in Eastern Europe and Mexico for bead making and glass blowing.

Thank you Karen! I was starting to freak out for a minute there, and wishing I hadn't posted anything in the first place. In fact, I'm going to back out of posting in this thread now, unless someone has a specific question they want me to answer I'm just going to lurk.

I do want to say that it has, indeed, been proven that Devardi Glass bought about 1700 lbs of glass from Dev Overseas. It is on the bill of lading with Daniel's name and place of business on it, with the code for glass rods. That is not even a question at this point. http://www.importgenius.com/importer...-biamonte.html

This is a matter of public record. Call me a stalker if you want... if someone with a business wants to sell me something, and I want to know more about it, I'll research the product and the business. I even researched TOASTERS before I bought one.

[J&M]

Originally Posted by debkauz

Wow. You must have a lot of free time.

I'll make time to help defend people who are being talked about in this manner.

Thank you.

[squid]

Originally Posted by Lizabeads

Squid...

I guess they could be getting censored for deleting posts. All I know is that I was told by them they are being censored. All their posts have to be approved. I guess they were told that. I'm very disapointed in the decision on this. Seems to me the wrong ones are being censored. After all they are the ones that were being attacked and now THEY are censored?
I admire Daniel for defending his wife for whatever reason he feels it necessary. I can only imagine how they feel and what LE looks like to them. This has nothing to do with whether or not I will play with the glass. Is there harm in playing with the glass until we know more? I think not.

They very well could be getting moderated for deleting posts. Makes sense to me, all things considered. I don't think they were being attacked. We should agree to disagree.

[J&M]

Originally Posted by Carolyn M

Jack

The thread was discussing Devardi glass and the two people responsible for bringing it to the US specifically their evasiveness in answering questions regarding the manufacturing conditions. Of course there was discussion regarding them!

By calling him an "asshole"? At least I'm not revealing any names of the ones who wrote those nasty comments. That's not a "discussion" as far as I'm concerned. JMHO

[miahawk]

Originally Posted by Kalera

This is a matter of public record. Call me a stalker if you want... if someone with a business wants to sell me something, and I want to know more about it, I'll research the product and the business. I even researched TOASTERS before I bought one.

before anyone accuses Kalera of being a stalker or "out to get" Daniel and Natash, this info has been looked up and independently verified by a number of people.

[ruca]

Originally Posted by squid

They very well could be getting moderated for deleting posts.

i think this is likely, just because everyone's edit function was suspended, what, a few weeks ago, for a similar problem. if they were being "censored" then all the posts quoting them would be deleted as well.

i hope its obvious i hold a pretty neutral stance here, but i definetely agree that would be reason to put them on moderated status. i hate when people go delete all their posts, it drives me crazy when i'm reading a thread & have no idea what's going on.

[J&M]

Originally Posted by Wiley

When he isn't busy feeling sorry for people! (referring to his pity for me!)

Do you think all of those comments were funny also?

[squid]

Originally Posted by J&M

By calling him an "asshole"? At least I'm not revealing any names of the ones who wrote those nasty comments. That's not a "discussion" as far as I'm concerned. JMHO

I don't really give a damn if you do name names. I called him an asshole in that thread for the rant he posted and specifically this part:

"However, there are also a few who have done nothing but try to railroad our business. These are people who no doubt sell glass themselves, have friends who sell glass, receive free glass from vendors for testing or somehow are affected by us selling glass. Check their websites. They are also people who do very little but spend huge amounts of time on these threads, complaining, criticizing and trying to hurt people. Check their other threads. This thread even took on that tone before we even were known, and it has steadily worsened. It is shameful. So many good people on this thread have decided to completely leave LE because of this small handful of cantankerous people who are out to spoil other people’s lives and our business, only because they can’t handle our competition."

It's so over the top its laughable. He is acting like people are out to get him. Paranoid much?

[J&M]

Originally Posted by squid

I don't really give a damn if you do name names. I called him an asshole in that thread for the rant he posted and specifically this part:

"However, there are also a few who have done nothing but try to railroad our business. These are people who no doubt sell glass themselves, have friends who sell glass, receive free glass from vendors for testing or somehow are affected by us selling glass. Check their websites. They are also people who do very little but spend huge amounts of time on these threads, complaining, criticizing and trying to hurt people. Check their other threads. This thread even took on that tone before we even were known, and it has steadily worsened. It is shameful. So many good people on this thread have decided to completely leave LE because of this small handful of cantankerous people who are out to spoil other people’s lives and our business, only because they can’t handle our competition."

It's so over the top its laughable. He is acting like people are out to get him. Paranoid much?

[BeadMaven]

Originally Posted by Kalera

WTF.

I asked them whether they could provide more information about the factory. I asked them if they had toured it. I asked whether they had their assurances of no child labor from the factory management, or from an independent third party who had toured it. I did NOT ask for the name and address of the factory.

You need to stop conflating everything everyone else has asked of them in this thread and pinning it on me.

You took several comments in my posts and made them about you. There were pointed questions I asked Miahawk or comments that were concerning you yes, but other comments were generalized and not directed at you....I thought it was pretty obvious - guess I should have made that clearer but thats 20/20.

[BeadMaven]

Originally Posted by squid

I don't really give a damn if you do name names. I called him an asshole in that thread for the rant he posted and specifically this part:

"However, there are also a few who have done nothing but try to railroad our business. These are people who no doubt sell glass themselves, have friends who sell glass, receive free glass from vendors for testing or somehow are affected by us selling glass. Check their websites. They are also people who do very little but spend huge amounts of time on these threads, complaining, criticizing and trying to hurt people. Check their other threads. This thread even took on that tone before we even were known, and it has steadily worsened. It is shameful. So many good people on this thread have decided to completely leave LE because of this small handful of cantankerous people who are out to spoil other people’s lives and our business, only because they can’t handle our competition."

It's so over the top its laughable. He is acting like people are out to get him. Paranoid much?

I don't deem that paranoid. I see it as that man watching all the negativity possibly breaking down a business he and his wife were trying to build, not to mention their reputation smeared. Where was it I saw someone say they didn't believe Natasha's story on their ebay auction?
That IS personal....calling them liars. ETA: Wait, I'll add insinuating they aren't telling the truth about how she came to America.

I can't imagine the angst he must have felt and I fully expect if someone is not in business to support themselves they would not understand that. Working for a company is way different than a home based business.

[Bubbyanne]

Okay I said I wasn't going to post in this thread anymore but I want to know where you are reading Natasha's story?
I looked through some auctions and didn't see it.
Link please? Pm is fine as well.

Back to lurkdome.

[miahawk]

However, there are also a few who have done nothing but try to railroad our business. These are people who no doubt sell glass themselves, have friends who sell glass, receive free glass from vendors for testing or somehow are affected by us selling glass. Check their websites.

uh, he obviously checked everyone out since he's inviting sympathizers to do the same, and has concluded that everyone who said anything he deemed negative to have an ulterior motive: to put him and his wife out of business. since what he said is patently untrue (I for instance have no vested interest in whether his business is successful or not) it's not a stretch to conclude he's paranoid.

[BeadMaven]

Originally Posted by miahawk

uh, he obviously checked everyone out since he's inviting sympathizers to do the same, and has concluded that everyone who said anything he deemed negative to have an ulterior motive: to put him and his wife out of business. since what he said is patently untrue (I for instance have no vested interest in whether his business is successful or not) it's not a stretch to conclude he's paranoid.

I seriously doubt he knew how to check that info (and even if he did that is a lot of research/people and the time frame just wouldn't jive) and I suspect it was PM'd to him about people who test glass for others distributors and post they get free glass too.

Unless true paranoia is diagnosed, its a relative term. I can go with that.
He isn't the only one paranoid then.

[BeadMaven]

Originally Posted by Bubbyanne

Okay I said I wasn't going to post in this thread anymore but I want to know where you are reading Natasha's story?
I looked through some auctions and didn't see it.
Link please? Pm is fine as well.

Back to lurkdome.

I read it on one of their auctions the day this thread started. I don't remember which auction it was on, sorry.
They probably removed it.

[miahawk]

it's true that just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you.

in this case, however, they (meaning we, since I was one of the people questioning) weren't out to get him, he just lumped everyone into the four categories of possible motivation to put him out of business. it's still a serious allegation against even the few people who are in one of the four groups, and comes across as paranoid.

[Kalera]

Originally Posted by debkauz

How did this get form a thread about the glass and working conditions to a 'let us now shred Kalera's ass' thread? Kalera has asked a lot of reasonable questions and I, for one, appreciate what she's done. Because of how Daniel and Natasha handled their responses to questions asked, I won't be buying any of their glass.

Thanks Deb! I appreciate it.

[Kalera]

Originally Posted by BeadMaven

You took several comments in my posts and made them about you. There were pointed questions I asked Miahawk or comments that were concerning you yes, but other comments were generalized and not directed at you....I thought it was pretty obvious - guess I should have made that clearer but thats 20/20.

???

You addressed me by name.

[Asil4]

Originally Posted by miahawk

well, I did think he was just a helpful guy with his heart in the right place, and even after that accusation, I'd still like to think he's just a nice guy who's been dragged into something nasty and has been duped by a shyster.

Now Daniel is a shyster? Is this insult of the day?

I'm also wondering if we have gotten to the point where we move on the "Tools" investigation. I would expect that everyone know where their tools are from and not use those from China because, you remember that China is a bad place, run by bad men, doing bad things to adults and children.

Because- you know, in order for those beads to be pristine for the 1 customer who will ever ask you about it, you must be sure that nothing that went into the making of it, is tainted in any way.


Let me know what that "hunt" begins. I'll be out buying a new outfit for the occasion. Maybe someone will invite me on one of their upcoming many tours of Chinese metal factories.

Mustn't delay now- there are distributors to destroy! Chop Chop!

[NMLinda]

For what it's worth, someone on TB discovered that there is a Devardi website:

http://www.devardiglass.com

I don't know how satisfied this group will be upon reading it, but it's now out there for your consideration.

Their first paragraph is unfortunate, in my opinion. It looks to me like they have confused potential customers with competing vendors. To anyone not familiar with this the happenings on LE, it could easily, on the face of what's written, sound defensive and like sour grapes. It's not the most professionally written website I've seen. They do, however, have a link to LE and recommend searching it for Devardi - which would take any potential customer to this thread as well as the technical one. They also make an attempt at discussing the working characteristics of this glass, and have a link to a page that discusses their opinions about working with India. To their credit, they are not trying to dodge the issue and although they don't talk specifically about the working conditions of their manufacturer, nor how they, specifically, plan to make a difference, I wouldn't expect them to on their website. I wouldn't blame them for wanting to keep that discussion either private with interested customers or discussed in other venues.

I have a hard time, personally, with the ethical issue. To buy or not to buy? I find myself, uncomfortably, sitting on the fence. It's akin to buy goods made in China. I believe China has made enormous strides, especially in the last decade. The Chinese are smart people who are no less interested in making a buck than anyone else and, for a socialistic republic, have become remarkably open to foreign business input in recent years. Have they uniformly achieved Western business standards and working conditions? Have they eliminated their problems? Heavens no! It's a huge country with a huge infrastructure that will take time and resources to change. We struggle with exploitive conditions in the US to this day - the garment industry in Los Angeles is notorious. Raids happen with surprising frequency: you can buy US made goods and still have instances in which you may unwittingly be ethically compromised.

India is also an extremely large country that can no more change overnight than China. The Indians are no different than the Chinese, in my opinion. They are also intelligent and also no less interested in making a buck than anyone else. Businesses in India in certain markets have improved remarkably in the last decade, leading to the emergence of a western equivalent to a middle class, but it has by no means been a uniform process. I would surmise that the demand for glass has been much lower than, say, for technical services, so we are more likely to see the less evolved elements of their economy.

Will buying Devardi glass help the workers in the factory? Links have been posted that make compelling arguments to the positive, as distasteful as it may be to enrich the factory owners in the process. Do we need to depend on the slow effects of passive purchasing to make a difference? In the very specific instance of Devardi, perhaps not.

Since the Devardi distributor has stated on their website that they are proud to support Indian businesses, why not pen a joint missive (so that they aren't bombarded and overwhelmed again) politely following up on the position they posted on their website, and asking if they would be willing to share their vision on how they plan on working with their supplier? Why not also ask if there is any specific way that we, as this distributor's immediate customers, participate in and support his vision? For those who are interested enough to pursue this, I'm sure this can be worded in a proactive, positive and constructive way. If someone chooses to follow up on this, I would recommend that the dialoge be kept private between the participants and this distributor, but if you like his response and support what follows, encourage him to publish the results, himself so that he can get some credit for being proactive.

Linda

[Kalera]

Originally Posted by BeadMaven

You took several comments in my posts and made them about you. There were pointed questions I asked Miahawk or comments that were concerning you yes, but other comments were generalized and not directed at you....I thought it was pretty obvious - guess I should have made that clearer but thats 20/20.

I just can't understand how you got here from there. You completely called me out by name. These are not general comments. I rebutted them and now you say I took comments that weren't directed at me, and made them about me? There is no way these comments are not about me. You used my NAME. They're very specific, and wrong.

I am upset and angry and really don't know what to make of your denial.

Originally Posted by BeadMaven

No fallacy. Fact.

Kalera was here asking questions and when N & D didn't come in fast enough
(for her) to answer to her she started throwing out negative insinuations.

Now, she posts this info (he said she said) and had apparently decided not to come back in a timely fashion and answer questions that not only I have asked but others as well.

Originally Posted by BeadMaven

No she didn't but she came in here saying she had talked to "someone who had knowledge" and has since never come back to divulge her source as has been asked to do several times. Where is she now? It is very discrediting for her to come in and make statements she can't back up or be transparent about. Its very hypocritical for her to expect transparency and then not abide by the same standards 'she' set.
Why is her sister now coming in and posting for her? This makes no sense to me.

Originally Posted by BeadMaven

I expect Kalera to do the same as she expect others. Its reallly that simple.

[bob]

I just bought my first AAnraku bails and when the package arrived it said made in China, I think this should be investigated. I know I won't use them til the hit squad can investigate this.
Bob

[miahawk]

Originally Posted by bob

I just bought my first AAnraku bails and when the package arrived it said made in China, I think this should be investigated. I know I won't use them til the hit squad can investigate this.
Bob

why don't you do your own research?