Need help with setup.

DanMorrison · #1 2012-03-12, 8:13pm

Okay, So I know that there are tons of people asking the "what .... should I get" question, on here, and on other lampworking forums.

But I've been researching this topic for months, and I still need help. I have seen pretty much every lampworking resource on the internet, and read every lampworking book I could get my hands on. But my needs are rather specific I think...

I have been making wooden pipes for 8 years (www.dmpipes.com), here is what I do...

I would like to add some glass to my pieces, but since I am predominantly a woodworker, I won't be working with the torch more than a few times a month.

I only need to work clear boro.

I would like to do pieces like this,

everything you see here would be clear boro, preferably with a moderately thick wall. The small tubing here is 5-8mm, for scale. These hollow objects would be no more than 4 inches in diameter.

So, what do you guys think would be appropriate for this? I will be working off a K sized oxygen tank and propane.

I would like to flame anneal with a bushy flame, but also need a pinpoint flame for working with connections on small tubing.

I won't be doing this often, so I don't mind spending more time working on a single piece. I plan on doing no more than 3 small pieces a month.

Also, is flame annealing/vermiculite + inspection with a polariscope viable for this? Or do I need to invest in a kiln?

My budget for the torch only, is 400$ If this is not possible, I can increase the budget I suppose....

thanks for much for any answers you may have!

sunray · #2 2012-03-12, 9:45pm

Nice Pipe beautiful work.
Where are you located?

RedToroBoro · #3 2012-03-12, 10:08pm

Dan. get a GTT Lynx torch for $400. You will need to find yourself a small used kiln. I am sure Sunray could help you with both.

DanMorrison · #4 2012-03-13, 12:39am

Quote:

Originally Posted by sunray

Nice Pipe beautiful work.
Where are you located?

thanks, I live in Toronto, ON, Canada. I emailed Nortel, since they are close by, but they didn't get back to me...

And I figured the Lynx was overkill for me...hmm..

menty666 · #5 2012-03-13, 5:33am

Call Nortel directly, they're a helpful lot, but not always the best about email

todda · #6 2012-03-13, 6:31am

http://glasstorchtech.com/lynx.html

wickedglass · #7 2012-03-13, 6:34am

I don't mean to discourage you from blowing glass, but glassblowing is not something you can pick up quickly just to use it 2 or 3 times a month, if you're not prepared to spend a lot of time learning it. Reading about it and actually doing it are two different balls of wax. It can take quite a while to learn, and there are a bunch of things you need to learn just to get to the stage of attempting a ringseal, such as you show in your drawings... and then, if you're looking at selling these object, you will need to be able to do those ring seals well, which means lots of practice at every stage of the learning process.
While such things as flame annealing and vermiculite will help slow the cooling process and go a ways towards achieving a proper anneal, I personally would not sell a piece with such potentially complex stress distribution and thickness, unannealed.
If you are a great woodworker, stay a great woodworker and get yourself a decent lampworker to make those things for you. You'll save yourself money and headaches in the long run. A decent lampworker worth their keep will be able to make exactly what you require, to your specifications (I employ woodworkers to make things for me all the time, because they can do wood much better than I can). But if you want to be even a halfway decent glassblower who wants to make things that look better than crap, be prepared to put serious time into it.

^ I say all this with the best and friendliest of intentions.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do!

wickedglass · #8 2012-03-13, 6:42am

Oh, and also the misconception you have about doing something "only (in) ... clear boro" ... you have to be able to blow glass well to make things in clear because every little mistake shows ... whereas with colour you can hide your mistakes ...

Bunyip · #9 2012-03-13, 11:09am

^ The master has spoken, Grasshopper.

3 of the pictured objects would be advanced to the point of improbably for a beginning glass worker. The 4th might be viable with a time investment that still seems somewhat unfeasible based upon your stated intent.

DanMorrison · #10 2012-03-13, 11:15am

thanks for your responses!
i should have clarified that i definitely dont intend to just pick this up and be good at it. I suppose my first post was poorly worded. I really look forward to learning this new craft and fully intend to put the required practice time into it.
anyhow.. that said.. my first choice was a lynx..and it looks like thats what you guys are suggesting...

also.. i thought about contacting a lampworker to do this for me..but i really get a lot of satisfaction out of learning new skills..thats half the fun!

Polgarra · #11 2012-03-13, 11:16am

Many lamp workers admit they started out because they thought 'oh I will just learn to torch so I can make my own----' then never looked back.

Alaska · #12 2012-03-13, 1:22pm

Your needs appears to be in the realm of the scientific glass blower. Someone that creates glass vessels for use in a wide variety of chemistry and other applications. These skills, as indicated above, take years to adequately develop plus at lot of PPP.

Seems that reading some material on this is that in some lampwork school programs the student works on pulling points for 6 months. And then moves on to other aspects to glass work.

IMO for the best results farm out the project and in the meantime develop your skills in lampworking as time and funds permit.

DanMorrison · #13 2012-03-13, 2:04pm

well..that is what i want to do now.. i have been working towards this day for two years almost. i have a lampworking fund of $2000 that i have saved for this moment...im ready to start practicing. im prepared to spend years learning how to do this. i make art full time as a career and its time to start taking steps to get to a new level in my work.

maybe i made a mistake asking for torch advice here... i guess im asking the wrong questions... anyhow thanks for the responses so far anyhow.

menty666 · #14 2012-03-13, 2:51pm

Nah, they just didn't want to see you waste your money thinking it was easier than it is

Welcome to the madness.

Otter's Flame · #15 2012-03-13, 2:53pm

I realize you have done a ton of research on set up etc. I know it isn't always easy asking questions, however I would advise you to ask a LOT of questions here. There are very few resources that can match the AMAZING resource of the people that are answering your questions. So many years of experience, learning, teaching and gaining knowledge. Many of the people here are truly masters at what they do.

You are going to need to set up your torch, your O2 source, lighting VENTILATION and many more pieces of the puzzle. These can all be very costly and there are some often overlooked practical aspects to a set up that at this point you may not even know to ask. If you plan out your basic set up and run it by people here there is great potential to save you time, money, frustration and also the possibility of saving your life through safety aspects you may not be familiar with.

I am glad to see you asking questions and strongly encourage you to continue. As Menty puts it, welcome to the madness!

Otter

wickedglass · #16 2012-03-13, 3:51pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by menty666

Nah, they just didn't want to see you waste your money thinking it was easier than it is

Welcome to the madness.

What he said.
Please ask your questions here, its a good place and good people who will be happy to help. I just didnt want you to be under any illusions that it was easy. The way you made it sound in your first post seemed to me like you thought you could pick it up by doing it a couple of times a month.
Anyway, welcome to the pond.

DanMorrison · #17 2012-03-13, 5:02pm

haha, I look forward to being part of the madness for a long time to come!

I really appreciate the help, I just want to make it clear that I am not the kind of person to approach something lightly. Reading over my first post, I realize now that I should have probably explained a bit more, instead of insinuating that all I needed was a torch, and I'd be good to go with making complex pieces in minutes. haha.

As for the rest of my setup, I have ventilation already setup, with lighting, a K sized Oxygen tank safely affixed to the wall, A propane tank setup 6 feet away from it, and a fireproofed sturdy area to work on.

I need regulators (this was another question I meant to ask) - Should I spring for the two stage? Or just stick with the cheaper one stage ones?

I am going with a kiln from paragon. The Caldera S, or Firefly. Thoughts? From what I've read, top loading kilns can be a hassle. But for the price, I'm willing to make a compromise. Plus, I would like a kiln that can achieve higher temperatures than what is needed for glass annealing, since I may use it for other things in the future.

The tools, and glasses, and other small things I think I can handle on my own/with the help from the people at nortel, or artistry in glass in London.

As for the torch, The Lynx does seem like a great torch, and I will most likely end up ordering one. Though, since I will only be doing boro, the pre-mix national 3-b, and the Mini-Milon look like they could suite my needs, since the national has a fairly long history of use in the scientific lampworking world.

Is it necessary to have flame control on the fly, rather than taking the time to switch tips? Or is this just a matter of convenience?

I'm floating in the pond...

deb tarry · #18 2012-03-13, 5:33pm

I know the gtt lynx is a good torch and will be a great stepping stone to where you want to go, but if I could share my experience with the lynx. I worked with the lynx for the last four or five years and I found if I wanted anything bigger than a 3 or 4 inch vase it was a pain in the neck to get a decent shape. The width of the flame was to narrow and it was difficult to heat a wide enough area on the tube to get a good blow. I must tell you though I don't have allot of experience in tube work and you can take my advice with a grain of salt. Is there any where you can go and try some different torches and get some lessons. I recently upgraded to a bethlehem bravo it has a centre fire that is the same (maybe a little smaller) than the lynx and a outer fire. It runs about 800.00 dollars but it does have a nice broad flame for larger tube work.
Like I said before I don't have a lot experience in tubing so do your research (don't take my word for it). The one thing about buying the lynx is it won't lose its value and when you are ready to upgrade most people are able to get close to what they paid for it.
Welcome to the pond.

J.Meader · #19 2012-03-13, 5:39pm

In your first post you stated you wanted to make objects that are 4 inches in diameter. I think you will find that the Lynx, which is an amazing torch, will be too small for your needs. I would look for something larger.

wickedglass · #20 2012-03-13, 5:58pm

I can't really speak on American glass kilns, because I don't own one, but you can get certainly get a ceramics kiln to anneal glass in. I use a kiln which I bought from a lady who made porcelain doll parts and fired them to bisque, so it was in "as new" condition and had seen very little use and was also half the price of a new one. The ceramic kilns generally go quite a lot higher in temp than the glass specific lehrs used just for annealing. My kiln is brick and very clean and a front loader. With a top loader it's more difficult to put stuff in because all the heat goes up. There is a viewing hole in the front of my kiln door which is perfect for me to hang punties or points through for garaging. If you need a digital controller, you can get a fuji quite inexpensively as well, I can't remember the model numbers off the top of my head though, so you may want to do a bit of research. You probably won't need a kiln controller initially, my day kiln just switches on, holds annealing temp all day and then turns off and cools down slowly at night, which is fine for general stuff. I have another kiln (also ceramics kiln because we also do a bit of fusing and casting) with a digital controller to anneal complex pieces.

As for a torch, the nationals are good torches with some great after-market tips (shelbo tips) available and quite good when starting out and doing all your practice on, but personally I prefer a torch which allows me immediate flame size control when I need it. I always recommend a torch that will allow you to do more advanced work than you are currently able to do, because you'll have it for a long time and are able to grow into it, so I generally recommend a Phantom. But because of your budget limits on a torch, something like a lynx is a good way to go, or those Nationals, if you don't mind the hassle of changing tips (and it can be a hassle, because you may have a piece of hot glass in your hand when you need a bigger, or smaller flame profile). Another kind of torch you may want to have a look at is one of the turret torches, which have a rotating array of tips and are more convenient than having to take off a tip and putting another one on. I've seen them on ebay occasionally going around the $300 -$500 mark. They're pre-mix toches and may play havoc with some of the more complex colours, but if you're intending to work in clear, they'll be just fine ... they're made for scientific work.

For regs, I've only ever used single stage regs, they're just fine. Use flowback arrestors! Turn off the bottle, bleed the oxy lines when you're done working and turn the reg off. If you keep the reg on and then turn on the oxy bottle, you can blow through the diaphragm quite quickly, but by taking the proper precautions your reg you will extend the life of your regulator hugely. This also takes pressure off your torch valve(s). Because of the much lower pressure, I never bleed my gas lines or turn my gas regs off. I've never had any problems doing that, but I do bleed them when I'm away for an extended period of time.

hope that helps.

DanMorrison · #21 2012-03-13, 6:05pm

That's exactly the kind of information I was interested in, thanks for sharing!!

When you start spending countless hours doing research, something happens where you think you gain clarity, and you know what you want.... and then in the next moment you're changing you mind again... and have NO idea what you want... Sort of frustrating...

I did some research on the Bravo, I feel like I could justify the price, I'm a big proponent in buying the best you can afford. It just makes life easier in the long run.

EDIT: So the lynx is too small, I would have never known that had it not been for this forum, thank you!

Bunyip · #22 2012-03-14, 6:04am

Some thoughts on torches:

When it comes to torches, you will typically be able to re-sell for a large fraction of what you paid for them, provided you keep them in decent condition, so if the torch you buy doesn't end up working out for you there is not a huge penalty for the mistake.

The Bethlehem Bravo replaced the older Bethlehem Barracuda, so bear that in mind with what I say here. In my experience (and according to tests by Lewis Wilson & others), in terms of heat output as measured by the ability to melt through a large diameter glass rod - the GTT Lynx is surprisingly comparable to a Barracuda (and thus probably to the Bravo) . Don't be misled by the smaller size. The difference is that the Barracuda (and again thus probably the Bravo) has a wider, softer flame, which lends itself better to working hollow pieces, while the Lynx has a more "penetrating" and aggressive flame which is probably better for working solid. Both are adept at either job however, within certain limitations.

If I had to do it again, I'd go with the GTT Phantom, though I'm pretty happy with my Barracuda. My next torch will definitely be one of the larger GTT's - probably a Mirage, though I'm not in the market yet so who knows.

There are other, less expensive torches out there which will achieve the same end as the Bravo, including the Nortel Major and/or the Red Max, which typically have a small Minor Burner piggy backed on a larger torch. Expect to spend $400-$600.00 for one of these, exclusive of hoses, regulators etc.

The best thing for you to do is spend some time playing on various torches before you buy, though that may not be possible.

Please share your adventure with us here, however you decide to go. I look forward to seeing what you come up with.

DanMorrison · #23 2012-03-14, 6:23am

Thanks bunyip!

That helps a lot.

I will update this thread with the details of my setup as I get it all done.

And of course, I look forward to sharing my experiences as I learn over the next long while.

As for the torch, I have made my decision. I'll update when I get it in my hands, haha.

Dasi · #24 2012-03-14, 8:30am

I think you should invest in a good one week boro class at Corning. Then after the week is over, you have some real clarity as to what torch you need to accomplish what you want. You will also have a better idea of your learning curve.

Is there a flameworker or pipe maker in the area you live. Maybe they can rent you torch time and a lesson or two to get you started before you jump in and buy a lot of expensive equipment. Cheaper equipment really will make what you want to do difficult.

Maybe take a two week class from Jim Byrnes? It is expensive but you will save a ton in the long run because you will learn the correct ways to do glass and succeed.
http://www.cmog.org/class/beginning-flameworking-1

Another class might be this one week class:
http://www.cmog.org/class/introduction-flameworking

todda · #25 2012-03-14, 10:56am

if your gonna spend $800, you might as well spend $1200 and get a GTT Phantom > http://www.glasstorchtech.com/phantom.html

cheng076 · #26 2012-03-14, 11:39am

There is a lot of good advice in the previous posts but no one mentioned the regulator question..or I missed it. In my opinion the 2 stage regs are overkill for torch working. the added smoothness of the gas flow is not needed and the extra mechanical innards make them more expensive and more needy of good care and maintenance.

Dasi · #27 2012-03-14, 12:02pm

The sidewinder is also a good choice and is similar to the phantom if you are planning to purchase concentrators.
http://www.glasstorchtech.com/sidewinder.html

LarryC · #28 2012-03-14, 12:32pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by todda

if your gonna spend $800, you might as well spend $1200 and get a GTT Phantom > http://www.glasstorchtech.com/phantom.html

Or just jump up to the Mirage which retails for around $1700 and is a whole lot more torch than the Phantom. Lots of folks seem to eventually make the upgrade anyway. The Mirage is the workforce of the GTT line and should not need upgrading for a very long time if at all.

DanMorrison · #29 2012-03-14, 6:18pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dasi

I think you should invest in a good one week boro class at Corning. Then after the week is over, you have some real clarity as to what torch you need to accomplish what you want. You will also have a better idea of your learning curve.

Is there a flameworker or pipe maker in the area you live. Maybe they can rent you torch time and a lesson or two to get you started before you jump in and buy a lot of expensive equipment. Cheaper equipment really will make what you want to do difficult.

Maybe take a two week class from Jim Byrnes? It is expensive but you will save a ton in the long run because you will learn the correct ways to do glass and succeed.

A class would certainly be a great idea, but for now I'm just going to see how the torch handles on my own. There are a lot of great resources online that I can take advantage of, and I have always benefited more from learning hands on skills on my own... I 100% agree that it would be a more practical way to learn and also give me a way better idea of what I should invest in, buuut It just doesn't interest me at the moment. Perhaps It's naive stubbornness.

If I completely fail on my own, It seems like the logical next step though!

Also, I probably won't invest in an oxycon, I'm lucky to have access to cheap O2 through a long standing Praxair account.

Over the Moon · #30 2012-03-16, 1:42pm

I'm not far from you here in Quebec, and work with a Lynx, if ever you want to 'stop by' and test it out. I'm curious who a person needs to know at Praxair to get a good deal on the oxy though. I've been with them for the last 7 years or so, and they charge me about $80/tank. Would love to know if you know a 'trick' to get that number down.