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Tips, Techniques, and Questions -- Technical questions or tips

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  #1  
Old 2009-12-04, 5:32pm
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Question Paragon Bluebird XL - do you have one? love it? hate it?

I'm a bit afraid to dump a large sum of cash on this little bugger - do you have one? love it or hate it?

I have an AIM and I hate it

My Aim has a ledge for setting the mandrels on - but it looks like the paragon has a metal holder - I question how well the mandrels stay on the holder, and if the beads are too close to the bottom shelf. I'd really appreciate some input. - Thanks much! Deirdre

here's the kiln.....

http://www.clay-king.com/paragon_bluebird_xl.html
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  #2  
Old 2009-12-04, 5:33pm
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Paragon rocks. I've got a Caldera, and I love it. The Bluebird wasn't around when I bought my kiln, otherwise it's the one that I would have bought.
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  #3  
Old 2009-12-04, 5:33pm
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From what I've heard, you might want to check out Glasshive kilns. He's an LE member. If you are going to spend that much, I think it's worth checking his out.

I don't own one, but I've read and heard nothing but great things about the kilns and his service.
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  #4  
Old 2009-12-04, 6:14pm
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thanks to you both for your input!
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  #5  
Old 2009-12-04, 6:24pm
De Anza Art Glass Club De Anza Art Glass Club is offline
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I've heard such great things about Glass Hive kilns.

However, check this out:
http://www.atlanticpotterysupply.com...G-100p1097.htm

Not sure of your question about the beads being above the bottom shelf. As far as I know, most people rest the beads on the bottom shelf. On my kiln, I put a piece of perforated steel with 1/4" holes in the back of the kiln so we could stack beads, and with that addition, the beads are above the bottom shelf, but that is not original equipment.

The metal shelf has rounded cutouts that are pretty big. I was expecting smaller. The Glass Hive has a shelf to rest mandrels and rods and seems to be on sale:
http://www.theglasshive.com/BEAD%20ANNEALLERS.html

I organize an art glass club and sometimes there are several members making beads, so I wanted the extra capacity of the Bluebird XL. (More room to spread out the beads and keep them from getting mixed up, as happened once with some confusion of who was the owner of a particular bead.) With the sale price and shipping, the Glass Hive (regular size) is just a little bit more and looks to be higher quality with little extras like the full shelf in front and the convenient door handles. I believe the warranty on the Glass Hive is much longer. The Glass Hive says it has fiberboard doors while those on the Paragon are brick, but I don't think that makes much of a difference.

Both kilns have piano hinges on the doors. The Glass Hive has metal legs raising the body above the table. The Bluebird uses rubber feet and doesn't have as much room for the air to circulate. The Glass Hive has handles on top to help move the kiln! The Bluebird doesn't have handles and I may just have to add some.

Both kilns use standard 15A plugs. There is some criticism of the Bluebird on the internet because the ratings show that it consumes more than 15A and it should have a 20A plug. So, Paragon includes a statement that (paraphrasing, haven't read it recently) that the kiln should be on a dedicated circuit. However, for normal annealing or fusing conditions, the demand of both kilns will be about the same and you should minimize any other loads on the circuit while you are using either kiln.

Last edited by De Anza Art Glass Club; 2009-12-04 at 6:59pm.
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  #6  
Old 2009-12-04, 6:54pm
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Love my Bluebird. Working well for the past three years.

ETA: If you're thinking of doing fusing or PMC in the future, you'll want a kiln that heats to a higher temp.
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  #7  
Old 2009-12-04, 10:09pm
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Bluebird is awesome! Clay King always has a good price. Orton digital controller is very easy to program. I took this kiln out of the box and needed no help to get it up and running. Brick version is VERY versatile
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  #8  
Old 2009-12-05, 8:48am
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I have a different Paragon Kiln, but if I were getting another I would go with a glasshive kiln.

Lou
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  #9  
Old 2009-12-05, 11:06am
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Default Bluebird XL

I have a bluebird XL from clay king, and I love it. It is freaking enormous, though, and I feel guilty turning it on if I don't have a lot of beads to make...
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  #10  
Old 2009-12-05, 12:56pm
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I have the Bluebird XL. Purchased from Clay King in July 2009, I think??? I shopped for a month before choosing this kiln. It is absolutely PERFECT for my situation. Yes, it is large, but here's how I solved that issue...

My studio has four of the steel restaurant work tables (49" long x 24" deep) from Sam's Club. I think they were about $100 each? I use two tables for metalsmithing, one for my lampwork torch, and one holds the Bluebird kiln. This gives me 16 feet of horizontal stainless-steel work surface. I mentioned these tables because they are super sturdy, fireproof, and also feature an adjustable stainless steel wire shelf underneath the top which can be used to store scads of supplies and tools.

The Bluebird XL fits the table surface perfectly, with plenty of rear clearance between the kiln and the wall. I especially love the little "mandrel holder rack/shelf thingy" on the front of the Bluebird. I'm not sure that's what it is called...but it is the scalloped little shelf on the front of the kiln that holds the mandrel ends that are sticking out under the doors. I wrote numbers on that holder, under each little scallop. When torching, as I place a mandrel in the kiln, I note the number slot it is in and write that in my notebook along with the glass colors I used to make the bead. After firing, as I unload the kiln and reveal my beads, I make notes next to the slot numbers in my notebook. I rank everything on a scale from 1 to 10 and write comments about how they turned out.

I was going crazy trying to make sense of boro color combinations and frit effects in my early days (daze?). I am convinced this "numbers and notes" system has helped me shorten the learning curve. Anyway, I wanted to mention my cuckoo numbered shelf because it is one of the features I like best about the Bluebird XL.

I also LOVE, LOVE, LOVE how easy it was to learn to program the digital controller. I was a bit intimidated at first, but wowee...it only took me a couple tries to get it going.

Please feel free to contact me if you have specific questions from a Bluebird owner.
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  #11  
Old 2009-12-05, 1:56pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ROC View Post
Love my Bluebird. Working well for the past three years.

ETA: If you're thinking of doing fusing or PMC in the future, you'll want a kiln that heats to a higher temp.
Quote:
Originally Posted by echeveria View Post
Bluebird is awesome! Clay King always has a good price. Orton digital controller is very easy to program. I took this kiln out of the box and needed no help to get it up and running. Brick version is VERY versatile
Ditto & ditto again!! Got mine from Clay King as well, and their customer service is fantastic! Love my pretty blue(bird) kiln.
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  #12  
Old 2009-12-05, 2:41pm
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Just to avoid any confusion...the bluebird XL heats plenty hot to fuse almost any glass I think about 1700 degrees....I normally fuse at 1400 degrees....only thing I have found fusing in the bluebird...is that heat is a little uneven....probably because the elements are a little close to the glass...this happens in most small kilns without much "head room" .remember there is a big difference between the bluebird XL and the regular bluebird....one is fiber or something the other is brick lined. Mine works really well for annealing. Glasshive kilns look really good too never used one...I got my BluebirdXL for $750 including shipping from ABR...and Glass hive was more...is the only reason I ended up with a bluebird....think both will work well. Asn I do like the additional depth....I use 9" mandrels and the 9" depth lets me put my whole bead and mandrel in and close the bead door completely.

Last edited by oftenred; 2009-12-05 at 2:45pm. Reason: additional information
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  #13  
Old 2009-12-05, 6:39pm
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Not to down Paragon kilns, but you may want to read this.

http://mikeaurelius.wordpress.com/20...paragon-kilns/

Lou
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  #14  
Old 2009-12-05, 8:49pm
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I ended up buying a Paragon Bluebird XL after much thought and it works great. One of my local glass members' studios uses that very kiln, running it 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, year after year, and I think the relay quit once. That's it. It's a real workhorse.

The only thing I don't like is that it's very large and I feel guilty firing it up if it's not completely full. I like to at least fill it halfway, if not all the way.

I put steel rod rests in the back of it, three of them, and I put the beads all the way in and rest the mandrels on the rod rests. This elevates the beads and it also keeps the mandrel all the way into the kiln so I can close the doors with their little latch while they anneal. This keeps the heat in better than if I had the mandrels hanging outside the unit.

The only drawback I've ever heard about Paragon is that their customer service is like molasses. My mom used to sell them 35 years ago when she was in the ceramics business and she said they weren't any better then, either. Otherwise I've heard no complaints about them and I know quite a few people who have them.
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  #15  
Old 2009-12-05, 8:51pm
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Oh, and I chose the XL over the regular Bluebird because it was all firebrick which is a better insulator than fire blanket, and also because the regular one really wasn't that much smaller. I also like having the option to fuse with it, although I've never tried it. (I've heard the fusing doesn't work so well, but it might be alright for pendants, I dunno)
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  #16  
Old 2009-12-05, 9:05pm
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Louis, I read the link you provided and showed it to my husband, who does all sorts of wiring and electrical work and who is very conscientious of code, safety, etc. He did say that the plug is adequate; he said the gauge of the wire is more significant than the plug, and that the units would have problems if the wire gauge is larger (with the wire diameter smaller) than what it is. So, I think they're still alright.

I'm glad you linked the article; I'm not sure how many people would know that a 20 amp dedicated circuit is required for this kiln. It's not the type of kiln you just plug in. That's also good to know before one makes the purchase.
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  #17  
Old 2009-12-05, 10:09pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FishBulb View Post
Louis, I read the link you provided and showed it to my husband, who does all sorts of wiring and electrical work and who is very conscientious of code, safety, etc. He did say that the plug is adequate; he said the gauge of the wire is more significant than the plug, and that the units would have problems if the wire gauge is larger (with the wire diameter smaller) than what it is. So, I think they're still alright.

I'm glad you linked the article; I'm not sure how many people would know that a 20 amp dedicated circuit is required for this kiln. It's not the type of kiln you just plug in. That's also good to know before one makes the purchase.
OK, I have two Bluebirds running in our studio. They are plugged into a regular wall outlet. We have used these now for two years for one, and one year for the newer one, almost every day for about 8 hour each. Since the place that we have the studio was built in the late 40's there is nothing special, (or safe, really), about the wiring. The only time we have had a problem with the annealer is when someone runs the microwave in the kitchen (where #1 is plugged in), or the security light on the back patio (which is the circuit that runs #2). The only thing that happened was the breaker was tripped.

I know very little about electricity, just enough to plug stuff in and expect it to work, but I do know that the Bluebird annealers are great. In spite of the dire warnings, we have had no problem. I would recommend them highly.

Believe me, I am not being cavalier about the danger of having that much hot equipment in the house. We are just careful to not over-tax the wiring as much as possible (keeping in mind, when this house was built, you had dim lightbulbs, a radio, and a black-and-white TV).......

Anyway, good luck, and should you choose the Bluebird and need assistance, drop me a line.

Desa
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Old 2009-12-06, 9:13am
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Desa, how is your electric bill? I've been wanting to run my Bluebird more often but I'm concerned about running our electric bill through the roof. My husband says it's not that much worse than turning on our oven but still... Do you find they really suck the energy?

I'm also still inclined to babysit the kiln -- do you do that? Most people I've talked to with Bluebirds don't worry about them, but then I'm the kind of person who doesn't leave the house with the dryer running.
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  #19  
Old 2009-12-06, 9:44am
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I have the XL - love the kiln when it works... It is just about a year old and I have been through 2 controllers and one relay. Their customer service was just like Fishbulb said - SLOWER THAN MOLASSES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It was very frustrating. I will never buy another Paragon product just for that reason. Just my experience, I know others have had no problems.

I also have an Arrow Springs kiln and absolutely love it - have had it for 10 years. My next kiln will be another one from them...

Jenny
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Old 2009-12-06, 5:02pm
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Quote:
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Desa, how is your electric bill? I've been wanting to run my Bluebird more often but I'm concerned about running our electric bill through the roof. My husband says it's not that much worse than turning on our oven but still... Do you find they really suck the energy?

I'm also still inclined to babysit the kiln -- do you do that? Most people I've talked to with Bluebirds don't worry about them, but then I'm the kind of person who doesn't leave the house with the dryer running.

Jenny, I am sorry that you have had the experience that you have had with your XL. It sounds like you have a lemon.

Fishbulb, the difference in the electrical bill is barely discernible! I was amazed. As far as babysitting the things, well, I use the 45 minutes that it takes to come to temp to run my errands, go to the grocery store, whatever. It completes the annealing process and cools down all night, and I wake up to beads and coffee. Can't get better than that.

Desa
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  #21  
Old 2009-12-06, 8:40pm
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i've got a bluebird XL and i love it - no probs so far

i dont rest my rods on the rest thing outside the door because this props the door open and lets out the heat, i lined the kiln with ceramic blanket and i shove the mandrels all the way in and close the door - for this reason i think i'll take the rod thing off sooner or later

yeah and i dont babysit mine either - but its not like i leave anything flammable sitting on the top! i just go to bet and leave it to do its thing
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Old 2009-12-06, 10:12pm
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I have had mine for a few months now.. Got it at Frantz for the Clay King price. First thing I did was remove the outside rod rest.. It let out so much heat I could practically heat my shop with it. I love the controller!!!
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Old 2009-12-07, 1:09am
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I have had mine for a few months now.. Got it at Frantz for the Clay King price. First thing I did was remove the outside rod rest.. It let out so much heat I could practically heat my shop with it. I love the controller!!!

yep, program it and its done
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Old 2009-12-07, 5:38am
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I took off that rod rest also, but then I bent it at an angle downward, and put it back on. I use a mandrel rack inside, so now the mandrels still stick out, but they are at an angle that lets the door close almost all the way. I have not noticed any spike in my electric, no more than my chili pepper. I did have a new plug put in on a separate circuit since I am running a LOT of stuff in one room. That cost me another $80.
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Old 2009-12-07, 8:43pm
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I LOVE my Paragon Bluebird XL- and I have done fusing, slumping and PMC in it! I ordered mine from Clay King and received excellent service from them as well as an actual person I could talk to on the phone. I use it 5-7 times a week and just love it! (did I already say that?)

Best of luck in your decision-making- there are alot of choices out there! Laura
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Old 2009-12-08, 7:26am
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Fishbulb, the difference in the electrical bill is barely discernible! I was amazed.
Desa
Thanks Desa and Kathy! I'll use mine more often if this is the case.
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Old 2009-12-12, 12:17pm
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WOW - thanks everyone for your response - much appreciated

now - I just received it today - BUT I'm scared - I'm Totally confused about the ramping process, and I've been searching the forums - can anyone tell me what the do? Does it matter if I fiber blanket them? and gather enough beads until I'm ready to turn my kiln on? or is it better to pop them into the kiln at a holding temp and not let them get cold - to batch anneal?

Can I also get the whole ramping shindig thing from someone? What is the highest temp I should get them up to, and then how many hours do I hold tem for at that temp - to the next temp and so on?

I dont have a clue - ;;;o)
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Old 2009-12-12, 9:53pm
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OK. I can help here. My annealing schedule is as follows:
first and foremost, hit the up-arrow button until you arrive at the "prog 1" display. The Bluebird has several preprogrammed schedules, but I have used my own with good results:

Upon arriving at the Prog 1 prompt, hit the start button. The first display will be "r 1". that is rate 1, and describes the temperature that the annealer will increase (ramp up) per hour. Set this at 950 by using the up arrow button until the display says 950. Then, hit the start button again. F (degrees, that little 0 by F) will display. That is the temp that you want to garage your beads at. Set this by holding the up arrow button down until you reach 950, which is a good holding temp for most 104 glass.

Next, hit the start button again. The display will read "hold". This is the amount of time that you want to work at making beads, and garaging the ones that you have made. Hit the up arrow key again to set the hold time. I have mine set for 9 hours. This gives me plenty of time to work, take a break or lunch, and go back at it for the rest of the session. If you know that you can only work for 4 hours at a time, let's say, set your hold time for 5 hours. Remember that the last bead that you put into the annealer needs soak time, so be sure to give it about an hour.

Here is the part that you want to get right. Now, when you hit your start button, you will get "r 2" on the display. This is where you begin ramping down through cooling. This step describes the number of degrees that your annealer will cool off in one hour of time. This HAS to be slow. Use the up arrow key to set this to 70. That means that you will have cooling at no faster than 70 degrees per hour.

Now, when you hit your start button, you will see another "f degree" screen. Here, you want to arrive at the annealing temperature for most 104 glass, which is 700 degrees. Use the up arrow button to enter 700. Then, hit the start button. The next screen will show "hold", so once again, use the up arrow button to punch in 30. I like to allow 30 minutes for all of the beads to become the same temperature before I continue the cooling process. (Keep in mind that not all of the beads that you anneal in a given time will be the same size. Glass holds temperature according to it's volume, so the beads need time to "get on the same page" before the temp drops further. 700 degrees is usually a common temperature for most glass to become molecularly stable. I like for everyone to catch up at this point).

Now hit the start button again, to see the "r" screen. I continue to use 70 degrees as a good ramp-down temperature throughout the annealing process, so you will need to up arrow to 70. Now, when you hit the start button, you see the "f degree" screen again, and you will use the up arrow key to enter 300. that is the cutoff point of this annealing program. (At 300 degrees, the anneaer will turn itself off and freefall to room temperature. And that is ok, because the glass is annealed at that point.)

the last steps that you need to do, is to use the start key to page through the last two degree/hold options. You don't need to mess with them in this routine. You will hit start, now, until the display says "on", and you are good to go.

To answer a couple of your questions, the term ramping describes increasing or decreasing your annealing temp. Think of this routine this way:

Ramp up to 950 degrees per hour.
Arrive at 950.
Hold for 9 hours.
Ramp down at 70 degrees per hour
Arrive at 700 degrees.
Hold for 30 minutes.
Ramp down at 70 degrees per hour.
Arrive at 300 degrees.
0 further ramp instructions.
0 further hold instructions.
turn off at 300 degrees.

As for batch annealing, I don't go for it. Especially is your beads are bigger than small spacers. There are a couple of good reasons why I feel this way:
1. thermal cracking is sometimes subtle. you probably will not know if your bead in the vermiculite or thermal blanket is cracked.

2. Annealing will not "cure" a thermal crack.

3. Say, something happens to your annealing program. A malfunction in the controller, or you unknowingly change the program. The first indication that you have something going on is usually an increase in the number of cracked beads that you find while cleaning. If your beads are batch annealed, you are nullifying a good indicator. See #1.

4. Since you garage all of your beads in the annealer, there is no reason to use any other method to hold your beads. It just doesn't make sense, and after you use the annealer a few times, you will see that this takes care of itself.

I hope that I haven't confused you further. This is just my method of annealing my beads. There are a lot of whys and wherefores about the temps that I use, and if you have any questions about any of that, feel free to PM me or catch me on Facebook for a chat. Search for Gothic Glass Jewelry on FB and become a fan, if you like.

Anyway, quit being scared of it, jump in, make beautiful beads!

Desa
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  #29  
Old 2009-12-13, 7:57am
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LAG LAG is offline
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If I might jump in here, too.. I have discovered that programming another step after you are done garaging and flameworking, you can hit the "up arrow" button, then "start" button twice, it will go (you have to preset this, of course)it will drop to your preset schedule and hold your last bead in the oven for your prescribed time (mine is one hour). This way you are guaranteed that the last bead is annealed.

So I program mine to garage for 4 hours at 960 (helps compensate for opening and closing of the door) and then another program to drop to 950 and hold for another hour. If you chose not to push those buttons to skip the remaining garage program, then your kiln will garage for 4 hours and then automatically go into the anneal program. I love the ability to skip a program if you desire so I can even choose to skip the one hour anneal program if I feel the last bead already had enough time in the oven. Just go through the same process with the "up" arrow button....

I use the same basic programming schedule for my boro also, except I us temperatures relevant to boro..

The third program is for big boro stuff with longer annealing time and my fourth program is for doing enamel painting on glass..

I love love love this programmer!!!!
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  #30  
Old 2009-12-13, 10:42am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ROC View Post
Love my Bluebird. Working well for the past three years.

ETA: If you're thinking of doing fusing or PMC in the future, you'll want a kiln that heats to a higher temp.
Ditto
I got mine from Clay King also
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