Lampwork Etc.
 
Send a PM to CorriDawn!

LE Live Chat

Enter Live Chat

No users in chat


Frantz Art Glass & Supply

Beads of Courage


 

Go Back   Lampwork Etc. > Library > Safety

Safety -- Make sure you are safe!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 2013-02-21, 12:34pm
Charli!'s Avatar
Charli! Charli! is offline
RAH!
 
Join Date: Feb 19, 2008
Location: England
Posts: 331
Default How to connect natural gas line to torch

I have a Bobcat that I'd like to run on natural gas- putting a gas line into that room is no problem. The problem is how to connect the gas line (copper) to the torch- as it is not allowed (in the UK building regulations), to use a push-on flexi hose and a hose clip.

Any ideas? I can use screw fittings on a flexi-hose, but not a push-fit one. But obviously screw fixings don't attach to the torch! Is there a way to adapt something? Or do you know anything I can tell my gas engineer to convince him otherwise?

Making beads outside is a nono (I don't really have an outside- my 2m2 yard is right of way for someone else, so i can't build anything on it, and the allotment is 1 mile away and with no electricity). I could pipe propane in through a window and remove it every time.. but thats a pain in the ass, and it seems ridiculous when there's a gas line right there! I just can't work out how to connect to it in a way that is allowed!

I'll praise you forever if you have a solution! Thanks for any help,

Charli
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
(Now with stock! And useful photography!)
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 2013-02-21, 1:52pm
houptdavid's Avatar
houptdavid houptdavid is offline
honorary bead lady
 
Join Date: Jan 14, 2008
Location: Mostly the doghouse
Posts: 5,180
Default

Not being in the UK, it's only a guess that they want to see a threaded end on a gas line
http://www.eriks.co.uk/Caterflow-Gas...Assemblies/677

You should be able to change out the barbed hose fitting on the fuel side to a threaded connection or flare, depending on what is needed there. Find out what the applicable methods of attachment are from your plumber or gas installer
__________________
David
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 2013-02-23, 12:12pm
Charli!'s Avatar
Charli! Charli! is offline
RAH!
 
Join Date: Feb 19, 2008
Location: England
Posts: 331
Default

Yup they want a threaded end.. but how do you connect a threaded end to the torch?

The torch end (I have a bobcat, but a minor looks largely the same):


So how on earth can I connect this if I can't use a hose and a jubilee/hose clip?
I used to just use a hose like this:


But now eleven different plumbers/gas engineers have told me I can't do this. They prefer I have a propane tank inside, or dangle a 30-ft hose through an open window- both of which sound less safe than letting me connect to the natural gas line!

Any ideas at all? You're my last chance! A hobby that doesn't involve fire just wouldn't be the same....
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
(Now with stock! And useful photography!)
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 2013-02-23, 1:40pm
Alaska Alaska is offline
Alaska Boro
 
Join Date: Dec 10, 2009
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 1,065
Default

A couple of suggestions....

1) Contact your local building codes administrator and see what the actual codes are that apply to your torch needs. In some cases, they do not specifically apply or do not cover a lampworking torch.

2) Locate a local lampworking person, group or shop and see what they are doing in regard to UK rules.

3) Ask GTT for suggestions as they sell torches all over the world. And see what they have to say about UK connection issues.

The overall problem is that lampworking is an uncommon use and most plumbers try to apply the standard rules. As most have never seen a lampworking torch.

Keeping a propane tank inside IMO is against all rules. However, once again the UK rules could be different. But from a safety standpoint that tank should ALWAYS be outside.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 2013-02-24, 12:31pm
houptdavid's Avatar
houptdavid houptdavid is offline
honorary bead lady
 
Join Date: Jan 14, 2008
Location: Mostly the doghouse
Posts: 5,180
Default

Wait, eleven different plumbers cannot figure out how to change from a 1/8" npt-1/4" barb fitting to a 1/8" npt- 1/4" flare fitting?

Seriously? Just unscrew it. The problem is they don't know because it isn't an appliance.
Can they run a gas line with a shut off valve and just CAP IT?

After looking thru the International Residential Code you can use copper (K or L) tubing and flare fittings to connect gas "appliances", this isn't rocket science!

Check out the other gas thread, and show them the picture with the valve and fire suppressor and see if they can do that
__________________
David
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by houptdavid; 2013-02-24 at 12:42pm.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 2013-02-24, 2:49pm
Charli!'s Avatar
Charli! Charli! is offline
RAH!
 
Join Date: Feb 19, 2008
Location: England
Posts: 331
Default

It is maddening! I finally get the opportunity to do this all 'properly', yet i'm not allowed!

I have spoken to the gas-safe certification people, utterly useless, as i am not gas-safe certified all they can tell me is the phone numbers of people who are (ie all the plumbers I've called). They won't tell me anything technical.

In theory I can keep a propane tank inside, but it voids my hosue insurance, and doesn't seem a very good idea. Regulations don't stop me doin it- but they do make my insurance useless if i do.

I have spoken to GTT (they phoned me all the way to the UK! Awesome people!). They recommended a hose and a permanent hose-clip (ie one i couldn't just unscrew)- tthat plumbers are telling me I can't have. Other people in the UK have it set up this way- but my (now 12) gas-safe certified plumbers all reckkong they can't do it (have they warned each other about me?)

They won't just run a line and cap it- they have to actually hook it up to the appliance (apparently). Have no idea how this would work in a kitchen re-fit or something where the appliance wasn't ready to go in yet.. so i might phone up and try this angle.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
(Now with stock! And useful photography!)
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 2013-02-24, 2:55pm
Charli!'s Avatar
Charli! Charli! is offline
RAH!
 
Join Date: Feb 19, 2008
Location: England
Posts: 331
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by houptdavid View Post
Wait, eleven different plumbers cannot figure out how to change from a 1/8" npt-1/4" barb fitting to a 1/8" npt- 1/4" flare fitting?

Seriously? Just unscrew it. The problem is they don't know because it isn't an appliance.
Can they run a gas line with a shut off valve and just CAP IT?

After looking thru the International Residential Code you can use copper (K or L) tubing and flare fittings to connect gas "appliances", this isn't rocket science!

Check out the other gas thread, and show them the picture with the valve and fire suppressor and see if they can do that
I'm not trying to be nasty about the neighbourhood plumbers.. but most of them don't seem to want to think, they only want easy jobs! I've struggled to get them to even put a gas line upstairs (as gas appliances are not allowed in bedrooms- even though the room in question will never be used a sa bedroom), they won't install into rooms without 'professionally installed ventilation' (which will be installed, but isn't yet). Just no one wants to do anything slightly unusual.

I shall show them that pictures (from the other thread), and see if anyone is brave enough to take it on! What they're saying it that they can run a copper pipe, no problem, then they can end that with a screw fitting, and screw a hose on. but the other end of threaded hose fitting has to connect straight to the torch (which obviously has a barbed bit on it, and GTT say I shouldn't just unscrew this- as that is originally what i hoped to do). I don't want to ruin the torch by unscrewing it.. but at this point I'm willing to give it a try anyway, as i have no other ideas (and no other way to use the torch anyway!).

Shall let you know how I get on when i do the ring-round of all the plumbers tomorrow!

Any more ideas they please let me know.. It seems like it really shouldn't be this difficult!
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
(Now with stock! And useful photography!)
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 2013-02-24, 4:51pm
houptdavid's Avatar
houptdavid houptdavid is offline
honorary bead lady
 
Join Date: Jan 14, 2008
Location: Mostly the doghouse
Posts: 5,180
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charli! View Post
GTT say I shouldn't just unscrew this- as that is originally what i hoped to do).
I don't quite understand why they would say not to?

I would see if you can do this, add pigtails to the torch with crimps
Crimp type hose clamps


Pigtail ends for barb to thread


See if there is a welding shop (or knows of a shop) that can attach swage hose fittings to the barbs
If not sell the torch and get a Bethlehem with the hoses attached
__________________
David
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 2013-02-25, 10:27am
Charli!'s Avatar
Charli! Charli! is offline
RAH!
 
Join Date: Feb 19, 2008
Location: England
Posts: 331
Default

Thanks for your help, but GTT have confirmed that you can't unscrew the torch fitting

'There is no way to remove the stud from the torch and replace with a screw in fitting.

There is no room in the torch for that and also, no fitting with the right size thread. The hose would have to be clamped on to anything coming from the torch.'

And a twelfth plumber has now refused to touch it. So.. anyone want to a buy a brand new Bobcat? Or an oxycon thats still in the box? Beware if you're in the UK and you'd like a setup indoors, unless you know a dodgy/friendly plumber its apparently no longer legal!
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
(Now with stock! And useful photography!)
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 2013-02-26, 2:15pm
Alaska Alaska is offline
Alaska Boro
 
Join Date: Dec 10, 2009
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 1,065
Default

Two alternative routes...

See what the folks say at the welding supply shops. In some cases welding torches are run off of natural gas. And some jewelry repair firms use a natural gas compressor as part of their torch setup. Can not imagine that a hand held torch would have to be connected to rigid copper tube!! One would think that there is a solution. Just that the plumbers have no experience in your needed area.

If all this fails then it would be time to contact your local assembly men. Or your local city counsel representative as a suggestion. If that fails then a MP or their staff if they are willing to assist.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 2013-02-27, 8:21am
Dale M.'s Avatar
Dale M. Dale M. is offline
Gentleman of Leisure
 
Join Date: Jun 10, 2005
Location: A Little Bit West of Yosemite Valley
Posts: 5,200
Default

Ummm.... Never heard of the problems you are having before.... Maybe you are not asking the right question or in right context.....

IF all else fails, use long hose through window and propane tank outside (disconnect after each use) ... I know some will get on me for this advice, because I have always been against it, but its time for desperate moves..... ANY TORCH you get will have same issues with connection (or so it seems) with the people and rules you are dealing with...

Other solution is to move studio to location where it easier to connect gas to...

Dale
__________________
You can lead a person to knowledge, but you can't make them think.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Vendor-Artist-Studio-Teacher Registry

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
San Francisco - A Few Toys Short of a Happy Meal
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 2013-02-27, 11:20am
Charli!'s Avatar
Charli! Charli! is offline
RAH!
 
Join Date: Feb 19, 2008
Location: England
Posts: 331
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaska View Post
Two alternative routes...

See what the folks say at the welding supply shops. In some cases welding torches are run off of natural gas. And some jewelry repair firms use a natural gas compressor as part of their torch setup. Can not imagine that a hand held torch would have to be connected to rigid copper tube!! One would think that there is a solution. Just that the plumbers have no experience in your needed area.
The rules for non-dwellings are vastly different, as far as the gas engineers have told me then if you're on commercial premises and people don't live there- you have a lot more leeway and can use as many push-on hoses as you like, the rules are only really stringent because i want my studio setting up inside my house.

In the mean time, when the house renovation is finished (as if that will be anytime soon!), I shall look into renting a garage or something somewhere and running there off propane.

Other people in the UK do run their torches on natural gas, and setup within their homes- they just obviously found brave plumbers!
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
(Now with stock! And useful photography!)
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 2016-05-02, 7:00pm
Larysa's Avatar
Larysa Larysa is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 28, 2016
Posts: 315
Default

I have the same problem here in Canada, Ontario. I want to use Alpha torch on NG and oxycon. I have a capped gas line within 5 feet of my lampwork place in the laundry room on the main floor of the house. I asked the heating contractor company (who seem knowledgeable as they did a good job in our other house over the years) to bring NG line closer to the torch and install extra shut off valve, so that I can connect T-hose to it. The contractor said that he can do the job, but first he needs to make sure that the torch is CSA certified. He also said that the red T hose cannot be used with NG because the hose also should be CSA certified. He said that he would connect the torch to NG with TSSA pipe and fire check is not needed. I know they want it to be safe. But there are all kinds of torches sold and manufactured in Canada, yet there is no clear regulation on their use. We have gas stoves used in houses, but the little bench burner is a problem ? I called Artistry in Glass where I ordered Alpha, and they said that the torch is classified as a bench burner that does not need to be CSA approved. Will try another gas contractor (:
P.S. The video of kids learning glass art https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2sYfaD7wRE
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 2016-05-04, 11:12pm
snoopdog6502 snoopdog6502 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 27, 2014
Location: Walla Walla, Washington
Posts: 289
Default

My goodness, what a huge hassle you get put though.. Unreal. You must have talked to some of the most brain dead plumbers on the planet.

I added to my furnaces gas line, added a valve and a pipe to B fitting nipple for about $20 and screwed the hose on it. It is that simple, use the yellow tape made for gas to seal the tapered threaded fittings.

Its so simple I am shocked you folks find such incompetent boobs when you go to enquirer about a simple job like that. Very sad.
Attached Images
 
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 2016-05-05, 8:03am
Speedslug's Avatar
Speedslug Speedslug is offline
Phill
 
Join Date: Mar 21, 2009
Location: Winnebago, MN
Posts: 2,489
Default

Too many lawyers chasing plumbers (and everyone else) for liability insurance money these days.

I did a black pipe to hose barb connection on mine, then bar b que hose to another hose barb connector to "b" fitting male connector to my torch hoses.

What you may need to do is find a plumber willing to tell 'you' what 'you' need to do to make it work with your own hands.
That way they have no liability issues.

Around here there is this "home as castle" doctrine that states that a person can do pretty much what ever they want to to their own home even if it does not fit building codes but a hired professional MUST comply with every stinking legislative mind quirk or they can lose their license and get taken to court for all they are or ever will be worth.
__________________
The Zombie Apocalypse is Upon Us.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 2016-05-05, 9:10am
artwhim's Avatar
artwhim artwhim is offline
Corgi Cult Member
 
Join Date: Jan 10, 2006
Location: Central Illinois
Posts: 3,723
Default

Professionals installed both a NG and propane line for me. After they left I was arranging things in the studio. I kept telling DH I was smelling propane. He thought it was just residual from the work they did. Finally I mixed up some soapy water, and started checking their connections. Yep, the professionals hadn't bothered to check their own connections and propane was leaking from the outdoor tank into our basement. Asshats! Their carelessness could have blown up our house and my children. I no longer trust professionals!
__________________
Kathy

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by artwhim; 2016-05-05 at 9:16am.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 2016-05-05, 10:18am
Larysa's Avatar
Larysa Larysa is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 28, 2016
Posts: 315
Default

Snoopdog, Phill, thank you guys for your support. No, I did not give up. I just got $300 estimate from another gas certified plumber. He never saw or heard of glass torch but he did understand what I need. He will extend NG pipe with TSSA pipe to bring it with the shutoff valve near my table. It will come through the floor from the basement. From there I can use my red hose to connect to the torch. Alpha is a surface mix, but I still try to get a firecheck from Carlisle to add to the setup. I will post the picture when it's done next week.
In Canada, too, the owner can do the work but for some work need a permit/inspection. It's just the gas work I prefer professional to do. We did electrical, structural and water plumbing while renovating and found that the inspectors are the most helpful to deal with. The previous contractor guy wanted to attach the torch as an appliance so nothing would ever move or tip over. He just wanted to see CSA stick on the torch and connect it with rigid pipe instead of hose. One his suggestion I would follow though - to secure the table to the floor so it does not move.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 2016-05-05, 6:23pm
ewagnerfrog ewagnerfrog is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 25, 2009
Posts: 40
Default

You should check with your gas company to see what pressure the gas comes into your house. i plumbed for natural gas here in the states, only to discover that gas came into the house at such a low pressure, I couldn't use it. Ernie Wagner
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 2016-05-05, 10:38pm
Speedslug's Avatar
Speedslug Speedslug is offline
Phill
 
Join Date: Mar 21, 2009
Location: Winnebago, MN
Posts: 2,489
Default

Aye, I bought the GGT Cricket just because it said it was designed to be used with house hold natural gas pressures in the US.

And being able to get by with a 5lpm oxycon was also important to me.
__________________
The Zombie Apocalypse is Upon Us.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 2016-05-06, 12:18am
snoopdog6502 snoopdog6502 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 27, 2014
Location: Walla Walla, Washington
Posts: 289
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ewagnerfrog View Post
You should check with your gas company to see what pressure the gas comes into your house. i plumbed for natural gas here in the states, only to discover that gas came into the house at such a low pressure, I couldn't use it. Ernie Wagner
My gas company will give me 5 PSi no trouble but for now I have standard house pressure and am not using it right now with a Phantom and Mirage both hooked up I need propane right now.

My new shop building will have a high pressure gas line after I get it all done.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 2016-05-06, 6:39am
Larysa's Avatar
Larysa Larysa is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 28, 2016
Posts: 315
Default

I will be updating about the progress so it helps others. I hope to use as little energy as just needed for a medium but detailed bead. I saw some build a kind of a heat shield that keeps heat around the flame. I am still waiting for my alpha. Will see how it will do on house NG and 1 5lpm oxycon.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 2016-05-07, 8:17pm
artwhim's Avatar
artwhim artwhim is offline
Corgi Cult Member
 
Join Date: Jan 10, 2006
Location: Central Illinois
Posts: 3,723
Default

My Betta worked fine on HH NG with one 5 lpm and a holding tank. The Scorpion works great on HH NG, but I feed it oxy with an M-15 and a holding tank.
__________________
Kathy

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 2016-05-17, 11:49am
Larysa's Avatar
Larysa Larysa is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 28, 2016
Posts: 315
Default

I have a bit of a progress to let you guys know. I have my NG line with shutoff near my table now, and here is a picture of the parts to connect to my Alpha. I will update when it's all up and running. Cost me about $600 CA to extend NG line + parts. I will have to replace one red hose fitting.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 2016-05-20, 1:59pm
Larysa's Avatar
Larysa Larysa is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 28, 2016
Posts: 315
Default

I just tested my NG / oxycon / Alpha set up, and I am really pleased how it works. Very different to HH on small propane canisters. I made a medium aquarium bead of Effetre glass on a low gas and oxy set at 2 LPM, just to try how it feels. Here are the pictures of the connected torch.
P. S. The torch is attached with screws, then the gaps sealed with aluminum tape so no hot pieces get under it.

Last edited by Larysa; 2016-05-20 at 2:05pm.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 2020-10-14, 12:40am
Rara-Flame's Avatar
Rara-Flame Rara-Flame is offline
Faith Inspired Artistry
 
Join Date: Jul 14, 2020
Location: U.K.
Posts: 17
Default

Hi all. Trusting that everyone is taking care at this most difficult of times.

I have a simple question - is it fairly standard for those of us who decide to switch over from propane to natural gas, to use our existing propane hose? (With correct fitting at shutoff valve)

I take it that a good quality orange/red iso3821 propane hose (6mm) bore - has no issues with natural gas?
__________________
Allow an inspiration to inspire. 🤔
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 2020-10-14, 4:30pm
Speedslug's Avatar
Speedslug Speedslug is offline
Phill
 
Join Date: Mar 21, 2009
Location: Winnebago, MN
Posts: 2,489
Default

This is a copy of what I replied to your other post of the same question;

I have had no trouble at all using my yellow and green hose these last 12 years or more.

Propane and natural gas are distilled from the same oil well gases so hoses made for one are OK for the other.

Propane will cause hoses made for acetylene to breakdown and get gummy and disintegrate from the inside out.
Clogs up the torch which get expensive to have the manufacturer cleanout and eventually will leak out the sides of the hose.

Natural gas is lighter than air so it's OK for use in basements but propane is heavier than air and will pool in low places like basements.
That is until the pool of propane finds the pilot light on furnace or water heaters then it can ignite in an explosive way.
Someone here disagrees with me a lot as to whether this is a real danger so I simply suggest you ask your insurance company if they will pay for any damages or if they will use just having more than a pound of propane stored in your house as an excuse to deny any claim at all, even for unrelated problems like like a water pipe flooding a bathroom, if they can prove having propane inside is a violation of your contract.
But that is off the topic at hand.

To be on the very safest footing, legally, I recommend getting a long length of bar-b-que tanks hose marked "Type T" on it along with barbed connectors and hose clamps.
Use a short length of hose where you have to have flexibility but use "black pipe" and bendable metal hose and shut off valves like those at the back of a stove to get the natural gas close to your torch bench.
__________________
The Zombie Apocalypse is Upon Us.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump




All times are GMT -7. The time now is 4:56am.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Your IP: 23.20.220.59