new studio setup - oxygen question + more questions

[beetsRgood]

Hi everyone - I have been reading a ton on this forum for the last week or so and I am so very impressed with this community!

My partner and I are very excited to set up our first glass studio. Neither of us has done this before, but we have been doing a ton of research and we have mostly figured out how we want to start. Since we are both so excited, we decided that we need to set up 2 torches so we don't have to take turns. I'm interested in soft and boro glass beads, and he is more interested in boro sculptural work. We are not on a super tight budget, and we are willing to spend a little more on equipment that we won't outgrow in a few months. However we also don't want to spend more than necessary.

For torches, we are thinking of getting a GTT Bobcat for me, and a GTT Lynx for him. I'll probably stick with soft and boro beads no bigger than 1", but how big could I go on this setup? He wants the Lynx to do larger items, mostly with boro. Do these sound right for what we want to do?

Now our biggest question, oxygen. After pricing out tanked oxygen, we figure it won't take too long to make oxygen concentrators worth the money. But we are not quite sure the best way to set them up. So far what we have come up with is 2 EX-15s feeding into a reservoir, then split out to each of our torches. We are thinking of running the oxycons at less than full power to get a higher oxygen concentration (which won't matter till we are past the beginner stage). So is this enough to power both of our torches at the same time (and still do boro color work)? When we split the output do we also cut the psi in half? Or how could we set up something now that we can upgrade later when we are ready to do more advanced stuff?

Thanks ahead of time for your advice!

-Amie

[jensy]

Welcome to the wonderful addiction of glass. I would try this man with your questions. You can find in the sales rack section him answering everyones questions and he really knows his stuff and has great prices too. I just wish he was in Canada.

http://www.unlimitedoxygen.com/

[2xMI]

Hi, Amie-- You are going to have so much fun! Have you taken a look at the "Torch" section, and maybe try posting your question there? It's at the top of the Tips and Techniques section that you posted this question in, and you'll probably get more answers from those who use the torches and oxycons you're thinking of getting and might be able to give you more specific advice. Sorry I can't help; I use a mega-minor and a miniCC and don't work boro.

Good luck,

Mimi

[LarryC]

If you are gonna go with Oxycons and not tanked and you want to work boro then I would suggest you not go with the Lynx but instead get one of the newer models that are not triple mix designs. These have been optimized for use with oxycons. If your not price strapped go with tanked oxygen to start and the Lynx and then later decide if you are willing to take the performance hit that comes with oxycons. After running tanked oxy for a while you would be better able to decide if the cost is worth it.

[cheng076]

I made a discovery this past weekend. I have pretty much always run the center flames of my GTT torches on oxycons. And I always struggled getting some colors to work right/well. This weekend I had set up with tanked oxy and my DAP and other similar colors worked so much easier and cleaner. Might have to discontinue the oxycons for all those DAP type boro colors. It made a BIG difference; I was supprised how much.

[beetsRgood]

So basically it's not possible to get the same flame quality with oxycons vs tanked oxy? Is this because of the concentration of oxygen that the oxycons put out vs tanked?

Thanks for the advice, maybe we will have to bite the bullet and just do tanked oxy. It just seems like such a pain (and expense) to have to go refill all the time, so we are hoping to find a better way. But I guess we can't eat our cake and have it too

Larry - when you referred to the newer models did you mean the Bobcat and Cricket?

And pardon my newbieness - but what is DAP?

[LarryC]

Originally Posted by beetsRgood

So basically it's not possible to get the same flame quality with oxycons vs tanked oxy? Is this because of the concentration of oxygen that the oxycons put out vs tanked?

Thanks for the advice, maybe we will have to bite the bullet and just do tanked oxy. It just seems like such a pain (and expense) to have to go refill all the time, so we are hoping to find a better way. But I guess we can't eat our cake and have it too

Larry - when you referred to the newer models did you mean the Bobcat and Cricket?

And pardon my newbieness - but what is DAP?

Sorry there really is NO free lunch If you do a careful read of the archives here you will see just how many folks working in boro that have problems with colors or lack of heat or other things that are using oxycons vs. tanked. I have used both with my Lynx and I can tell you there is a big difference in performance. My point is that if you start with a handicap you may not like the results and get frustrated. I think it is best to make the judgment of whether an oxycon is worth the tradeoff after you have been working for a while. Truthfully I am not that familiar with the GTTs optimized for oxycons so hopefully someone else can help with those. I think you guys will love the Lynx if you go with tanked oxy. Heat wise it is a much bigger torch that it seems. I have a Lynx and a Mirage and am a diehard GTT fan. DAP = Double Amber Purple, which is a very popular boro color.

[Dragonharper]

The next question is, "How many hours a week, combined, are you and your partner going to torch?" If you are going to go "Full Time" you may want to look into liquid Oxygen or LOX. It may be cheaper in the long run. Personally I use tanked but I only torch 4-8 hours a week. I get about 12 hours out of a 124 Cu Ft tank, if I don't use the outer fire very much, and it costs about $20 to fill/swap. I have an old house so Oxy Cons and a kiln are out of the question. I'm not sure what you mean by larger items, but the outer fire can consume a large amount of O2 very quickly. If I ran the outer fire continuously at a rate that wouldn't over heat the torch the same tank of O2 would for 4 hours or less.

[RyanTheNumberImp]

Given that neither of you have torched before, I am hesitant to recommend a top-notch setup but if you are convinced that you will enjoy the hobby then your idea of getting a lynx + bobcat sounds really good.

GTT Triple mix torches are without a doubt some of the best, and really shine on boro because you can get cleaner, more intense flames. I have used several torches, including the nortel and carlisle torches and the flame control provided by triple mix is worth it (assuming you know how to properly adjust the flame).

When it comes to deciding between tanked or concentrators you will find that while some of the problems can be attributed to oxygen purity, the majority of issues are simply due to not having enough capacity which pushes the concentrators to their limit (low purity) and runs slightly reducing.

IMO The real problem is that torch manufacturers understate their oxygen requirements and oxy-con sellers overstate capacity. Most soft glass lampworkers use very small flames. I bought double the recommended capacity for my mirage and am getting ~50% of the maximum flame size which means somewhere along the line numbers were fudged by a factor of four.

There are a few people over at the melting pot that do enormous boro pieces with several mirage-size torches using a single industrial concentrator system so it is absolutely viable if you have the money.

In my experience, a wide open lynx will use ~15lpm (15-20psi) while average consumption will be ~7lpm. If you want decent purity with that your generators should be rated 15-20lpm for the one torch. Very few people actually go wide open so you can get away with far, far less.

Two EX-15s will be wonderful when getting started and you can always add more as necessary.

[cheng076]

Oxycon purity is usually stated to be about 94% to 96%. These numbers fall off somewhat as the flow rate is increased. Lampworkers are probably getting 90% to 94% realistically. Tanked oxy runs about 95% to 98% and the high-test medical use oxy runs 98% to 99%plus. The medical stuff is rare and very expensive but that level of purity is seldom needed. My dad was in the business for 38 years and these numbers come from his company's products. Even LOX has some small percent of impurities. As stated No Free Lunch!

[LarryC]

Originally Posted by cheng076

Oxycon purity is usually stated to be about 94% to 96%. These numbers fall off somewhat as the flow rate is increased. Lampworkers are probably getting 90% to 94% realistically. Tanked oxy runs about 95% to 98% and the high-test medical use oxy runs 98% to 99%plus. The medical stuff is rare and very expensive but that level of purity is seldom needed. My dad was in the business for 38 years and these numbers come from his company's products. Even LOX has some small percent of impurities. As stated No Free Lunch!

Thanks for the info, Cheng. I seem to recall a thread somewhere about testing done on all of the available concentrators. Dont remember whether it was on LE or the Melting pot. Someone who was in the business of selling concentrators got a hold of a gas analyzer and did extensive testing. I think the end result supported your data. It seemed legit even though the poster was comparing their products to others. Some of the purity numbers at the specified flow rates were quite low. Wish I remembered where that was......

[beetsRgood]

The next question is, "How many hours a week, combined, are you and your partner going to torch?" If you are going to go "Full Time" you may want to look into liquid Oxygen or LOX. It may be cheaper in the long run. Personally I use tanked but I only torch 4-8 hours a week. I get about 12 hours out of a 124 Cu Ft tank, if I don't use the outer fire very much, and it costs about $20 to fill/swap. I have an old house so Oxy Cons and a kiln are out of the question. I'm not sure what you mean by larger items, but the outer fire can consume a large amount of O2 very quickly. If I ran the outer fire continuously at a rate that wouldn't over heat the torch the same tank of O2 would for 4 hours or less.

Roy - We are not going full time, and we figure we would each average around the same as you, which would mean we are emptying a 124 cu ft tank every week. How heavy are those tanks? I would have to do the filling, and as a petite woman I'm worried about being able to lift these things. I can probably lift about 50lbs safely.

RyanTheNumberImp - That is what we thought we understood from what we have been reading, that if we got extra concentrator capacity, we could run them lower and get higher purity that would meet or exceed tanked oxy. What about pressure though? If you add extra oxycons you don't get extra pressure right? And then we want to split that pressure between our 2 torches. Would you see that as an issue?

LarryC - I would love to see that chart you mentioned. I will try and search for it, and if you do come across it please let me know.

Thanks for the discussion on this everyone, this has been extremely helpful! This will be a sizable investment for us and we really want to thoroughly examine both options before we make a decision.

[echeveria]

I think those comparisons were done by Kimberly of Pyromanix, and they were on here. It has been at least a year ago, and maybe longer. You might could email her and ask about them. They were awesome comparisons, very thorough.

[RyanTheNumberImp]

Originally Posted by beetsRgood

RyanTheNumberImp - That is what we thought we understood from what we have been reading, that if we got extra concentrator capacity, we could run them lower and get higher purity that would meet or exceed tanked oxy. What about pressure though? If you add extra oxycons you don't get extra pressure right? And then we want to split that pressure between our 2 torches. Would you see that as an issue?

Pressure will not be an issue. While the pressure from two concentrators is not added (so 15psi + 15psi still equals only 15 psi) it is not halved when going to the torches either (both torches are still seeing 15 psi).

I run a nearly identical (albeit larger) setup to what you are planning - two concentrators feeding into a storage tank and then going to both a lynx and mirage.

The only downside of this setup is that if you are running near capacity both torches "fight" for available oxygen. One person switching to a larger flame will make the other torch go reducing because there isn't enough oxygen for both. Its not really an issue but it might be surprising the first time it happens.

I only keep about 15 psi in the lines for my mirage so your setup will be great.


For what my opinion is worth, I recommend against tanks. I was able to use a much larger flame but it was hard to enjoy torching when paying ~30$ in oxygen an hour.
Plus tanks have a habit of running out right when you are almost done the greatest bead you've ever made and hauling them around sucks.

[LarryC]

I used to run T tanks that were around 140 CF but I have recently switched to Ks which are 251 CF. Running the centerfire of my mirage only, which is the equivalent of the Lynx you are considering, I get 20+ hours of run time at full bore out of each of my 2 K tanks. The Ts weigh 90+ lbs and the Ks are closer to 150 lbs. I cannot lift 150 lbs myself but I dont need to. I roll the tanks upright and lean them on the loading gate of our SUV and slide them in.

Ryan, how do you calculate $30/hour for oxygen? I pay less then that for a full K tank fill.

[RyanTheNumberImp]

Originally Posted by LarryC

I used to run T tanks that were around 140 CF but I have recently switched to Ks which are 251 CF. Running the centerfire of my mirage only, which is the equivalent of the Lynx you are considering, I get 20+ hours of run time at full bore out of each of my 2 K tanks. The Ts weigh 90+ lbs and the Ks are closer to 150 lbs. I cannot lift 150 lbs myself but I dont need to. I roll the tanks upright and lean them on the loading gate of our SUV and slide them in.

Ryan, how do you calculate $30/hour for oxygen? I pay less then that for a full K tank fill.

I was getting ripped off, but the only place I could get oxygen from here was charging 45$ a T tank and I was using them really really fast. My studio is downstairs so larger tanks weren't practical.

[Dragonharper]

The 124 CuFt tanks weigh about 90 lbs like Larry said, I move them around with a hand truck. My supplier doesn't rent out the smaller tanks, so I had to pony up $250 for the first tank of oxy. Oh, don't forget to chain the tank(s) to the hand truck and to the wall during use. In storage with the cap on they are fine to just stand next to the wall.

[LarryC]

Originally Posted by RyanTheNumberImp

I was getting ripped off, but the only place I could get oxygen from here was charging 45$ a T tank and I was using them really really fast. My studio is downstairs so larger tanks weren't practical.

Yup. Thats full boat high retail. Jump through whatever hoops are needed to get a wholesale account at your gas co and you can pay less than half what you pay for a T for a K fill. I have an art glass business and all it took for me was a resellers license that cost me $100. Work smarter not harder Believe it or not, it is easier to move the K tank around than the T. Seemed that the T was less stable to roll and definitely tippier.