More Barracuda Questions~~

[PaulaD]

WellI finally had some time to hook it up and ran it today. I have no idea what I am doing. I ran it on 5 psi propane and 20 psi oxygen (tanked.)
Here are my questions:

Is that too hot for soft glass? It boiled the crap out of my opalinos and reduced just about everything else!!

Is it possible to get a bushy flame with this torch as I have on th Mini CC? I never saw one today.
Is the thing supposed to hiss loudly? (That oxygen sound). It's way too loud to hear the radio...

What are the cones supposed to look like (and the size?) for the inner and outer flames? Is there supposed to be that one cone in the middle that sticks out??

Thanks. Paula

[bhhco]

Maybe crank down the oxygen to 10 psi. Fuel psi looks ok.

Mine runs fine on a 1:2 - Fuel:Oxygen Ratio - 5psi:10psi. Just needs a good flow of oxygen (CFH) which your tank easily supplies in gobs.

For soft glass I use only the inner flame (which mimcs the Piranha), but others may have a different opinion about how to best bring in the outer ring for soft glass.

Bill

[PaulaD]

Thanks Bill.
Yeah this torch was way too hot. I had to put on kevlar gloves and I have a "sunburned" face!
I'll try the 10 psi oxygen tomorrow. I'm working off of a cyrogenic cylinder!
Paula

[hotflashwanda]

Paula,
This torch is much hotter and it will be a matter of using what looks like a very small flame for soft glass. If you turn down the propane pressure to 2-3 and use 10 for the oxygen you'll end up with a smaller more oxidizing flame as your valve adjustment won't be as sensitive. A tiny valve adjustment makes such a difference with the Cuda on higher pressures. I can easily boil 10mm boro clear on my Cuda, so I know what you are encountering with the Opalinos!!
You will not get a bushy flame on the Cuda except with the outer ring on it will be a wider flame. I don't use a bushy flame for soft glass so I'm not sure what kind of advice to give you on using the wide flame for that.
According to Bethlehem,the cones in the flame should be blue, but try not to get that loud hissing sound that obscures the radio unless you are trying for a temporary super-oxidizing flame for special effects. Turn the propane down more and adjust the oxygen so you have no yellow candles but also no loud hiss. Your flame may be a bit smaller than other torches, depending on what you used before. The center jet/cone will be a little longer than the others. Probably for soft glass cones of 1/4 inch would be plenty for most purposes. A soft gentle blue flame will be really penetrating and put out plenty of heat.
Hope this helps,
Anita
www.fireflybeads.com

[PaulaD]

Thanks Anita.It all helps. Such a learning curve!!
The only way that I could figure out to get rid of the reduction was to get really sharrp cones and thus the loud hissy noice. Like a wind tunnel!!
Paua

[PaulaD]

The torch worked much better today at the lower pressures.
I ended up going back to the Mini CC by the end of the day though!
Paula

[firelady]

First of all, if the torch makes almost any noise at all, you've got it adjusted wrong! This torch should be almost silent, especially if you're using it for soft glass and for beads. Personally I use 5 lbs of propane and 20 pounds of oxygen. If turning down the oxygen helped you out today, that's good...but didn't you say you'd been reducing your colors? I love 5 and 20, but then at the torch don't turn your oxygen very high at all. If you hear a "hiss" that is characteristic of a strong oxidizing flame, you'll probably be miserable with your soft glass. First, I'd like to say that I always managed to boil the hell out of opalinos with just a minor burner, it's the nature of working those colors, try working them farther out in the flame. The Cudda is waaaay hotter than a Minor.

Now, it's true that at Bethlehem the official word is to have a blue flame. But let me say this: at the factory, where they test the torches, they are running on natural gas. Guess what!? Runs blue. Beautiful blue. But in my studio, on propane, I almost always have a little dot of yellow at the end when I am working my basic neutral flame, and on a Beth, neutral does tend to go slightly towards reducing anyway when you get it bushy. So I keep my O2 pressure up at the tank, but dialed in minimally at the torch. Of course you can get bushy on a Cudda!

A week ago Friday I shot Lori Robbins (with a camera, of course) in my studio, demonstrating Cudda flame settings for some video footage that we're going to assemble for our website and then may also offer as a DVD. This woman had flame settings that I have never seen before. Everything looked like a pretty daisy, when you stared straight on at the flame from the viewer's side (not the artist's side, obviously). Yes she had some yellow at the tips. She'd run the outer flame with very very short candles,
and almost nothing in the center, and get this yummy soft flame. I'll have to look at the footage and review it; I haven't started editing it yet....
but you can get the coolest, broadest, softest flame as well as the focused, pinpoint razor sharp flame.

PM me with additional questions. But don't give up. The Cudda has a very very short learning curve, and you'll find your "sweet spot" soon....


Marcie

[PaulaD]

Thank You Marcie and Kimberly!!
That's a lot of good information that I will put to good use!
I just have one more question. Do the cones look the same at a neutral flame as they do on a Mini CC and a
Minor? Sharp with just a touch of yellow at the tips??
And what do you do about the hot barrell?
I doused it with cold water after one bead and it steamed like crazy!
Does Beth have a "cooling kit"?
I did see a post on the forum where it was mentioned that I could make my own..Dunno if I want to!
Thanks again!
Paula

[firelady]

We have water cooling kits for some of our larger torches, but nobody has ever requested one from us for the Cudda. It's a torch...it's making fire....it's metal, and it gets hot. We are much more concerned about if the knobs get hot on a torch, making adjustment difficult...or it the torch is so hot that it threatens to melt its own face off. Neither situation has come up with our beloved Cudda. Do you need to hold hands with your torch when it's on???? Anyway, I'm only kidding.... I'd say approximately yes for your neutral flame setting comparison, although each of the torches you mentioned has a flame that splays out a little wider, whereas our center fire is somewhat more focused/narrower. But as far as blue to yellow ratio, it's probably about the same. And remember...."Silence is Golden". if ANY Bethlehem is hissing or roaring, it's not properly adjusted. Please do let me know how it's going for you and if you have any more questions as you go...

Thanks!
Marcie

[Cosmo]

Paula,

Get yourself a stick of GA Amazon Night and heat it up. If it's the same color after heating as it was before heating, your flame is neutral. If there is haze on it, you are reducing. If the flame is really noisy, you're too oxidizing.

I will add, however, that I leave the oxygen on my outer ring on my Tiger Shark cracked open all the time. I like a lot of oxygen.

And, as for getting hot, well, it's putting out a 2500+ degree flame. It's going to get hot. Have you ever used a CC or CC Plus? Talk about hot...

[kbinkster]

Paula, I just wanted to add that Marcie is right about the pressures, 20 psi sounds right for the cuda, given its size. The Cuda is a bigger torch and needs more oxygen to run properly. If you starve it, it will get too hot. You can still run a small flame, you don't have to run a big one all the time. But, generally speaking, the bigger the flame, the cooler the torch will run. I've posted this elsewhere, but I'll post it here, too:

On a Bethlehem torch:

Neutral Flame - There will be very little yellow to white tips on the cones and the length of the cones should be between 1/8" to 3/8"

Oxidizing Flame - You will have pretty much the same length cones. You would be pushing the oxygen harder, so the torch should be hissing. And, you will start to see clear streaks in the blue flame.

Reduction Flame - This is an easy flame to get on a Bethlehem torch. Basically, the candles will get more yellow tipped: 1/3 of the length or more of the cone is yellow tipped and will look somewhat feathered. Once you get a cone over 3/8", you will usually start going into a reduction flame on a Bethlehem torch. Torches can vary (they each have their own personality), so some of them can get longer candles before going into the reduction flame. But around the 3/8" to 1/2" mark is where most of them will start doing that. Just cut back on your oxygen to reduce in any range.

You will want the flame to have some thrust to it to push the ignition point away from the face of the torch. When running low pressures with flames that are too small, ignition can happen right at the face of the torch, this causes the torch to overheat from the face back.

I hope this helps. Enjoy the new torch!

[PaulaD]

Thank you all again. I'm printing out the new answers to take to the studio and try out . Yesterday I tried it again using 5 and 15 and it was hissing the entire time. Plus that barrel is dangerously hot! I did just order the marver. I think I just have to keep fiddling until I get the right combination of settings. The tanks at my studio are no where near the torches which is why progress has been so slow..Paula
ps I can leave the outer oxygen on all the time? I was wondering about that!
And no I have never used one of those bigger torches. I hate melting my face off! All I want to do is make some beads...

[kbinkster]

Originally Posted by kimberly

Paula,
Me again. I run my torch at about 12-18 psi oxy and 3-4 psi propane for soft glass, 20-26 oxy psi and about 4 psi propane for boro. The torch body does heat up, but I use a torch marver so I don't have the problem of touching the hot torch body. I have found exactly the opposite of what Kimberly posted with the Beth - the bigger the flame I run, the hotter the body gets. When I am making tiny little soft glass bracelet beads, small flame, etc., the torch body stays cool. When I am making large beads or running both the inner and outer rings, the body heats up more. If I am using a big flame with a LOT of oxy (say for boro), the torch body stays a little cooler, but still heats up relative to the size of the flame. Of course, I am not an expert in torches, just a user of one. Just my experience with the torch. I love mine!

If you were to just run the torch with nothing in front of it, you should find the larger the flame, the cooler the torch. However, when you put something in front of a standard torch, which is what people tend to do , the equation changes. How much things change depends on how big that something is.

When bringing a piece of glass into the mix, there are two things in particular going on to add heat to the torch body.

The first is a phenomenon called "splash back." The heat that gets directed towards the glass gets reflected back towards the face of the torch. This superheats the face of the torch and causes the torch body to heat up. The flame/heat actually bounces off the piece and travels back up the path of the flame to the face - kind of like a recirculating convection thing. Sometimes, you can actually see an orange-ish color crawling back up along the blue. This is something that happens with all the bigger standard torches (not triple mixes).

The second thing going on is radiation. You have put heat into a piece of glass and at some point, the glass itself starts to radiate that heat. Some of it heats up the torch. So, the larger the piece, the more heat there is being radiated, and the more heat makes its way back to the torch to heat it up.

The amount of heat taken on by splash back and radiation is dependant on the size of the piece being worked. Generally, the larger the piece, the larger the flame used. This would naturally cause someone to conclude that it is the larger flame causing the torch body to heat up, when, in fact, it is the larger piece of glass.

Since everyone works differently (some people use small flames to do their work - both large and small, some people use large flames to do their work - both large and small, and some people change the size of their flame to fit the size of their work), it is better to be clear on why things happen the way they do and go from there.

[kbinkster]

Before you ask, my torch is a good five feet away from the nearest wall... But again, I am just a stupid beadmaker and an enduser of a torch.

?!?

Who ever implied that you are stupid?

My post was in no way disparaging to you. I was explaining why torch bodies heat up. That's all. You can endorse whatever torch you want. It still has nothing to do with "why" a torch body heats up. And I didn't even say that the barrel of a standard torch heating up is abnormal. Did I?

From your reaction, one would think that I had just slammed you and your torch, when I did nothing of the sort.

Whatever.

EDIT to add:
As far as the Bethlehem thing...
If anything, I am saying that this sort of thing happens to all bigger standard torches - it is not unique to the cuda, or other Beth torches.

Oh, and the bigger the face, the bigger the area there is to catch some heat...

But what do I know? I am just a beadmaker who has played around a lot with torches and whose partner used to build Bethlehem torches and currently builds his own brand.

[Cosmo]

Originally Posted by kimberly

Edited because I don't have the time, desire or energy to argue.

Paula, I will help you out when I come to your studio! Looking forward to it!

I would be very interested in hearing from some other BETHLEHEM users.

I'm a Tiger Shark user.

The face of my torch gets hot when I'm using it, but since there is flame coming out of it, I expect that. Also, after working on larger marbles (2" or so) the torch body will get hot about 1/3 of the way down the barrel. After using my torch for an 8 hour day, running it pretty hard, my knobs never get hot. I do, however, have a L marver mounted on the torch, which does get hot. Not hot enough where it will burn you, but hot enough that you can feel it. I tend to believe that bounce-back heat from the glass does more to heat up the torch than the flame coming out of the torch. I know it works that way with my fingers. That would also explain why the marver heats up even if it's not being used.

[kbinkster]

Originally Posted by kimberly

Oh, and before I forget, I am not endorsing ANY torch. Everyone likes something different. I like my Beth. I had recently thought of looking into GTT again for some different work I have had in mind, as the flame characteristics would be better for this work, but I will stick with my Beth.

Actually, I had misread your post when I typed "endorse." I had read "enduser" as "endorser."

As far as quoting you, I was posting while you were editing. I didn't go back and post something just because you edited it out.

And, I'm sorry if you read what I posted as some sort of commentary against you or your torch. It wasn't. Like I said, I was only explaining why torch bodies heat up and that it was not a reason for a Beth torch to be singled out. Nothing negative there.

[Cosmo]

Well, I never seem to make simple ones. Sometimes they start out simple, but they never end up that way.

But, in general, a 2" marble takes me 1.5-2 hours.

[Cosmo]

Yeah. The biggest I've made was about 2.5", and it took me about 4 hours. But I ran out of oxygen halfway through, so I had to pop it into the kiln and work on it again later. So 4 hours may not be accurate. It may have been longer...

[PaulaD]

Drew Fritts told me that it sometimes takes an hour and a half just to make the components for his marbles...
Anyway, after reading all of this stuff, talking to Vince, and trying different things I have sort of figured out how to get this torch to work for me!! Of course I'm still looking forward to private lessons from Kimberly!!
I went back to the 5 to 20 ratio as the 2 to 1 is only for the smaller torches. I still need to fiddle again with the psi numbers but that's what I've been using for now. I also pointed it straight up as I saw Sue Ellen do in her dvd vs. out and ahead of me. I hate my torch pointing this way but it keeps me from leaning over it and getting burnt on the barrel. Where I was really going wrong though was in the size of the cones. I was running it like a Mini CC with cones that were way too big. When I went back and read Kinkster's description of what the cones should look like and got out my ruler I had an "aha" moment! The face on this torch is actually smaller than the face (number of holes) on my Wildcat though and I'm not so sure it melts glass faster. Haven't tried boro yet at all on it but I have the feeling that the flame is a great boro flame. I did melt through a few mandrels!!
Hey Kimberly,
We need to talk about your flight after the Gathering when I am back to sitting at my desk all day!
Paula

[firelady]

A ways up this thread, somebody asked about water cooling for the Cudda. Nobody had requested that before. But guess what? We've made some!!!

I was surprised and delighted when they told me on Tuesday that Water Cooling attachments are now available for the Cudda and the Tiger Shark. The PM2D and the Great White have had that option for awhile, but the addition of the Cudda was really unexpected!!! The Cudda and Tiger Shark water jacket attachments are already on the shelves and ready to ship. If you want more info, pricing, etc., either PM me, or email me at firelady@gate.net.

I have so enjoyed this thread...there is great information available, and I have never before seen such attention to detail in a description of flame settings as kbinksters Post #12. And Post #15, describing splash back is full of excellent information as well.

(I can't wait to see what happens next.....)

Marcie

[ShepherdCreations]

Ok, so if my greenish ring on my 'cuda starts to stink and brown at the edge a little because i didn't have enough oxygen flow to cool the barrel sufficiently, do I need to replace it??? Thanks!

[firelady]

Send your torch in for a quick checkup. Sounds like their might be problem with the heat synch (the greenish ring). Might be a leak of some type, or a breach between connecting parts. Please send it to: Bethlehem Apparatus, 890 Front Street, Hellertown, PA 18055.

[ShepherdCreations]

Well (and mind you I just got it so I don't want to send it away yet), is it a serious issue to replace it or is it fine as long as I dont brown it further? It's only a little brown on the edge where it meets the barrel, most of it is still green. How long do these last, how quick is service, and how much does service cost? I can't really afford to be without it in the weeks before Christmas... Thanks!

[R4GlassStudio]

Just for fun... on the Cuda I can make a clear 2" inch marble using 1 inch rod in 7 minutes. It's the color and design that takes all the time. On the Phantom, I made a large dichro fishing lure out of... ready for this..... 44mm x12mm wall Schott tube. Half inch thick wall. Again no problems needing or wanting more heat. All the torches work great. Flashback heat..... On my torch anything within three feet of the torch in all directions will be too hot to touch if I'm working big glass.

[firelady]

It's not about the brown, it's about whether there's a breach between the two connecting parts, and if so, is there a leak...? THAT's the serious issue, not about the cosmetic part. The torch should last forever. I know several people using Bethlehem torches they got in the '70's and still run them daily! As far as service, repairs are FAST. It's FREE if it's a defect in the torch, as in a part that failed during normal use. They have a lifetime warranty. If the torch was dropped, taken apart, etc., or other cause is determined, there would be a charge, but they would call you with an estimate before they did anything. I understand not wanting to be without a torch before Christmas, so unless you smell gas or anything, why not send it in after the first of the year?

[kbinkster]

Originally Posted by ShepherdCreations

Well (and mind you I just got it so I don't want to send it away yet), is it a serious issue to replace it or is it fine as long as I dont brown it further? It's only a little brown on the edge where it meets the barrel, most of it is still green. How long do these last, how quick is service, and how much does service cost? I can't really afford to be without it in the weeks before Christmas... Thanks!

Your torch is showing definite signs of overheating. It's not something to play with. Has your torch ever popped loudly and shut off the flame when first lighting it? Does the flame ever "stutter" with a popping sound? Does it make excessive tinking sounds when heating up or cooling down? These are signs of a leak causing pre-mixing.

In the instructions for the Barracuda, Bethlehem tells you one way to test for pre-mixing:

"To test your burner for proper performance, just simply turn off the oxygen flow, then re-open the oxygen very quickly. If there is a loud bang, then pre-mixing is occurring and the burner should be returned to Bethlehem Apperatus for repairs." They go on to state:

"CAUTION
DO NOT USE BURNERS THAT MAKE A LOUD BANG WHEN THE OXYGEN SUPPLY IS ABRUPTLY CUT OFF."

So, definitely test for premixing!

Here's a more detailed way to test:

After you have been working on your torch for a while and the torch is heated up, have the outer and inner fires both running at about 1/3 to 1/2 capacity.

Take your oxygen line about two to three feet from your torch and bend it onto itself to pinch the oxygen line shut. You should see an all yellow propane flame after you cut off the oxygen.

Count to five (1...2...3...4...5...) and let the oxygen line open fast. Do this about three times to see what happens.

If the flame goes to blue and stays on, then you probably don't have a leak.



Any browning on that heat sink is a definite sign of overheating, which is not normal. The best thing to do would be to send it in. If there is a leak with the torch, that should be covered under the warranty.

[ShepherdCreations]

OK. I will do the tests to see if there's a leak or if any premixing is going on before panicking... I just received it last Friday and have only used it a few times, but I know i did push the lower bound on pressure and oxy flow. I will likely send it in after the holiday rush is over so I can make sure my beautiful new baby is all ok and well. Thanks everybody!