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Frantz Art Glass & Supply

Beads of Courage


 
  #1  
Old 2006-11-17, 12:29pm
Diane (clarus) Diane (clarus) is offline
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Default Which Oxycon, and from Where?????

I'm about to plop down the money to get a Mini CC and an oxycon. I've read all the posts on here about what it needs, but I'd love to hear what some of you more experienced lampworkers have to say about particular oxycons with this torch. I'm upgrading from a HotHead, so anything will be better than what I've been experiencing, but I'd like to do it right the first time. Here are the specific questions:

Can I get a DeVilbiss MC-44-90 or Solaris 505/515 that claim 8.5 to 10PSI and be happy with that, at least for a while? And what is the difference between the MC-44-90 and the MC-84? Do you really need an oxygen concentration indicator?

Is there really that much difference between the aforementioned DeVilbiss machines and the Invicare or Healthdyne units that claim 5 to 7PSI? Are two of these hooked together better than one of the DeVilbiss units? I do realize you'd be using more energy by running two units, but what about the total output?

Is there another one that is recommended that works great on this torch that isn't one of the really high end units?

Cost is an issue - has anyone ordered from Hobbiesforus or PreciseConcepts on eBay? They regularly have concentrators for sale at good prices, even including shipping, and seem to have a good reputation. Has anyone had a bad experience with any of the online vendors?

Better yet - does anyone know of a dealer in the San Francisco area that sells used oxycons for competitive prices?

Thanks everyone for sharing your wisdom. You're an amazing bunch of people!

-Diane
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  #2  
Old 2006-11-17, 2:58pm
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kbinkster kbinkster is offline
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Carlisle says that the Mini CC operates well on 7 LPM (volume) at 5 psi (pressure). A single DeVilbiss unit (5 LPM at 8.5 psi) will provide more than enough pressure, but not quite enough volume to get this torch to its top-end flame - what you would need if you were going to do some boro.

Keep in mind that even on tanked oxygen, this torch is not geared for big boro stuff - boro beads would be about it. I'm sure that you could make something a little larger, but it would be challenging and take a while.

Anyway, I have heard from several lampworkers that they run a Mini CC on a single 5 LPM / 5 psi concentrator for making soft glass beads. The problem that many people find with this set-up is that the knobs get hot on the Mini CC. Other people say that their Mini CC knobs get hot even when they are on tanked oxygen, as well. So, take that for what it's worth.

With the DeVilbiss, you will still be getting the same volume of oxygen (5 LPM), but it will be delivered at a higher pressure (8.5 psi). This means that the flame can get a little more thrust to it.

Running two Invacare units together, you would get about 10 LPM at 5 - 5.5 psi. Running two DeVilbiss units together, you would get about 10 LPM at 8.5 psi. Both of these options (or running a single concentrator that puts out that much oxygen at that pressure) will give you what the manufacturer recommendeds for the oxygen setting.

When buying from an eBay vendor, ask them if they warranty their units at all. If so, ask them what the warranty covers. Also, make sure that they have properly reconditioned the concentrator they are selling. Some people simply replace the filters and call it reconditioned/refurbished. For a reconditioned unit, you will want one that has had all the work done to it necessary to make it like new - stuff like repouring the seive beds, rebuilding the compressor, replacing valves where needed, installing new filters, cleaning and disinfecting the unit, etc. The hours won't matter so much if the unit has been properly reconditioned.

I hope this helps.
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  #3  
Old 2006-11-17, 3:16pm
Hollowbead Hollowbead is offline
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Hi - I have a Mini C.C. and just spent my holiday bonus on a large concentrater from Mountain Arts glass. I love it!! It is great with soft glass and I just did my first boro bead last night. No problem getting enough heat. I did a lot of research on the cost - not so much on the brand. I don't think there is alot of difference unless you are getting a used one and are thinking you need to repair it. The operation of the concentrater I hear is rather straight forward so I don't expect to be repairing it unless I don't change the filters.
Have fun!
Hollowbead
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  #4  
Old 2006-11-17, 3:19pm
Hollowbead Hollowbead is offline
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Oh yes!! Arrowsprings is having a sale that includes shipping on their Oxygen concentraters
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  #5  
Old 2006-11-17, 3:25pm
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I have the DeVilbiss MC-84 and I love it. I'm on a Mini CC and it works great - plenty of oxygen for whatever I've tried - even small boro beads. I got it from Hobbies 4 Us (or Hobbies R Us) on eBay for an awesome price.
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  #6  
Old 2006-11-17, 3:31pm
Justin L Justin L is offline
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I currently am selling the Devilbiss MC 44-90 (5LPM and about 9PSI) for $370 shipped, including a 5 year warranty. Two of these together will give you the same output of some larger generators at a fraction of the cost
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  #7  
Old 2006-11-17, 3:43pm
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meister1981 meister1981 is offline
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A devilbiss unit for just soft glass beads will be enough but for boro your way better off with 2 devilbiss units. Problem with the miniCC is that it is an oxygen hungry torch. I have 2 concentrators together and the knobs still get hot and I think that it is pretty much in the design from what we have seen.

Getting enough LPM is great but it won't give you more PSI if you stick two units together and sometimes you need more pressure for a bigger flame. Also I'm sorry to say but manufacturer specifications are always lab results just like cars. Yeah sure your new car says it can do 35 MPG/city and 55MPG/highway but it's not often the real result you'll get outside with all the conditions.

You can try any concentrator but hey for the price get yourself a higher PSI unit since they all cost the same price. Why get something with lower PSI when a higher PSI unit is tha same price.
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  #8  
Old 2006-11-17, 4:08pm
Diane (clarus) Diane (clarus) is offline
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Thanks everyone, you've given me a lot of food for thought. I forgot to mention that at least for now I'm only planning to do soft glass, so I don't need anything that is powerful enough for boro. I had settled on the Mini CC over the Bobcat because I would save $60 on the price, but now I see that Arrow Springs has the Bobcat on sale, so price is less of an issue. I can't find any actual numbers on the Bobcat - can anyone tell me what the LPM and PSI requirements are for it?

Kimberly, I have to specifically thank you for your in-depth explanation of the torch requirments. You're always wonderful with sharing detailed information. I've read so much over the last few months and after a while all the TLAs start looking the same - I'd gotten the PSI and LPM mixed up when I read the requirements for the Mini CC.

Thanks again to everyone!
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  #9  
Old 2006-11-17, 4:34pm
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You're welcome, Diane! And thank you for the kind words.

The Bobcat has similar oxygen and fuel requirements as the Mini CC and Minor Burner. I don't have the more precise numbers off the top of my head, right now. But, I do know that it will run well on a single 5 LPM concentrator for soft glass and Wally said that it could run at 5 psi. So, either a 5 LPM/5 psi unit or a 5 LPM/8.5 psi unit would be good for soft glass. The nice thing about the Bobcat is that it is made using the GTT patented cooling system. So, the torch remains cool. Your knobs should never get hot.

Personally, I feel that the Bobcat is underpriced. It outperforms the Betta (even on low pressures) and the Betta costs about twice as much. So, at the price Arrow Springs is offering, you would be getting quite a good deal.
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  #10  
Old 2006-11-20, 4:15pm
Hollowbead Hollowbead is offline
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Hi Again - I just thought it would be nice to mention that the "reconditionered" O.C. meant for non-medicial used have the alarm disconnected. This is a loud alarm that will sound for a max. of 2 minutes. If you are in a small space, or senitive to sound you may want to be for-warned. Also the O.C. unit has have a constant hum - like an air compressor.
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  #11  
Old 2006-11-21, 11:48am
Justin L Justin L is offline
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the alarm should sound for no more than 30 seconds when you first start it up, and should not come on again until the next time you use it. If the alarm is on for any longer period of time, there is a problem.
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  #12  
Old 2006-11-22, 1:22am
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Mr. Smiley Mr. Smiley is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbinkster View Post
Personally, I feel that the Bobcat is underpriced. It outperforms the Betta (even on low pressures) and the Betta costs about twice as much.
I would LOVE to see the Bobcat out perform a Betta.

I worked on a Betta for 4 months and can tell you, it's way more torch than a Bobcat.
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  #13  
Old 2006-11-22, 11:06am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Smiley View Post
I would LOVE to see the Bobcat out perform a Betta.

I worked on a Betta for 4 months and can tell you, it's way more torch than a Bobcat.
How? How does six jets beat seven jets (both being standard mix)? How long did you run the Bobcat?
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  #14  
Old 2006-11-22, 11:56am
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Mr. Smiley Mr. Smiley is offline
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The number of jets is a small part of the whole picture. In this case, it's the size of the ports and torch set up. Counting the jets doesn't always cut it. There's so much more involved. You should know this Kimberly. Have you been on a Betta? I've been on several Bobcats and like I've said before, I just wasn't impressed. It's an OK torch, but not my choice for the work I do. I need more heat. I love the Lynx and other triple mix torches in the GTT line... so it's nothing against GTT.
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  #15  
Old 2006-11-22, 1:24pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Smiley View Post
The number of jets is a small part of the whole picture. In this case, it's the size of the ports and torch set up. Counting the jets doesn't always cut it. There's so much more involved. You should know this Kimberly. Have you been on a Betta? I've been on several Bobcats and like I've said before, I just wasn't impressed. It's an OK torch, but not my choice for the work I do. I need more heat. I love the Lynx and other triple mix torches in the GTT line... so it's nothing against GTT.
First of all, I just want to say that I didn't take your comment/opinion as anything against GTT.

To answer your question, yes, I have run and have seen other people run several Bettas. And like I have said, or at least implied, I was not impressed.

I found that on low pressures, it operated much like a Piranha does on the same low pressures. It could make small soft glass beads. At normal operating pressures, I found that it performed much like a Minor Burner - and even more like a Piranha. At normal operating pressures, it could make larger soft glass beads and could probably make small boro beads. You could probably make small pendants with it, but that would take more time (naturally).

On some of them, the long yellow finger coming from the center jet threw the torch into reduction too soon and a decent-sized neutral flame just could not be had. On one in particular, two of the outer candles ran together to form one long yellow candle. To get a neutral flame, you had to run the torch really low. You could not run the torch to the top end. I don't know if the long yellow candle thing is a common problem with the Betta, but out of the ones I have seen, it would appear so.

This next incident, related to me by a trusted friend, further shaped my opinion of the Betta. This studio where he took a class had different torches set up on low pressure NG: the Bobcat, the Wale Firebird, the Betta, and the Minnow. The other torches on the table outperformed the Betta on the low pressure NG they had. In fact, the teacher (who sold the Betta - saying that it was supposed to be Bethlehem's low pressure torch) had to take that Betta off the table because the student could not get a useable flame out of it. It was too short and small on the pressure available. However, all of the other torches (the Bobcat, the Firebird, and the Minnow) were on the same line pressure and did a better job than the Betta. They were able to get better flames than the Betta - and they were all on low pressure.



Yes, there is more to it than jet number. There is also more to it than simply making larger ports, but I'm not at liberty to discuss the particulars of that.
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  #16  
Old 2006-11-22, 2:33pm
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Mr. Smiley Mr. Smiley is offline
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I'm sorry you had a bad experience with a Betta. I'd have to say it wasn't normal... or maybe the 5 or 6 I've seen have just been abnormal. Dunno. I worked for 4 months on one and loved it. I made small to large pendants with ease. I've fumed gold on it at very low pressures. It seems to out perform anything I've seen at low pressures. I've sold quite a few and have heard great things back. When I've backed down on the pressure to the point where the regulator needle was almost resting on the pin, the torch was still very impressive. I work boro colors that are really touchy to reduction and had zero problems on mine. A neutral flame was quite easy and so was an oxidized flame. A long hot focused flame was quite easy as well. I guess different strokes for different folks on this topic.
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