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  #91  
Old 2009-03-07, 9:49pm
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Teena Teena is offline
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My goodness it isn't brain surgery here! I bought their animal tutorial, and I don't have all the glass colors they used, but I'm going to buy the ones I don't have....no biggie!
~~~
This thread reminds me of when H.Kitty drove me into the ground for copying her work... ouch, I know it hurts and its bad to go public. I never responded in the thread but I read all the "crap" that people said about me, no one knows the threat that she wrote me before she posted the thread....take the listing off or else kind of thing. I figured if I wrote ANYTHING in that thread I would regret it, so I didn't. It's not good to put down fellow lampworker's in public threads!! (sorry if I spelled anything wrong in this post, as someone said I don't know how to spell in the H.Kitty thread)
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  #92  
Old 2009-03-07, 10:57pm
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Unless it's a specific glass that must be used for the technique or you can't make the bead - can't you just buy some of the glass?

I mean, if you bought a cookbook and they told you needed anchovies to make some dish, isn't up to you to go buy some anchovies?

So, the tutorial says you need Bullseye glass. Wait until you get some to make the bead. Unless you don't want to buy Bullseye glass.

I can see putting the coe on the description, but that's all. I don't see why the tools need to be listed. You are buying a recipe. If you don't have a spring form pan, you can't bake the cheesecake.
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  #93  
Old 2009-03-09, 6:19pm
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I personally think this is a ridiculous rant and can't believe you publicly humiliated the writers of what appears to be a great tutorial. I love that seasoned lampworkers are taking the time to share their techniques with us and you should to. A lot of lampworkers will be hesitant to write tutorials by posting this here and that really ticks me off. This should have been a private matter. I comtemplated writing a few tuts, but some of the feedback I've seen, such as yours, has really held me back. Anyway it's not really a big deal that they are using bullseye. Just use the glass you have.
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  #94  
Old 2009-03-10, 9:27am
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Tut writers: If you don't disclose the materials needed for your tutorials, from time to time folks are going to be unhappy. Newer bead makers especially. Newer folks don't realize how you can substitute one striking glass for another, or one COE for another. They just don't know that. They see it as a recipe for how to make the subject of the tutorial....which it is. Some folks will go outside the edges of the tutorial, some won't. That's a risk you take making and selling the "how to make X Bead" lesson. Some people WANT to make X Beads, exactly like in the lesson, and if they have to pay for it to find out that a material is harder to get, then they will be unhappy.

If I bought a cake mix, got it home, opened up the package and found out I had to go back and buy flour, I'd be pissed. That's why they put most of the stuff in the box and then list the rest on the outside of it.

All that's being asked for is the stuff that ought to be on the outside of the box. Yeah, it was a little harsh. Can't the writers put themselves in the poster's place for a moment, though, and see how frustrating it could be, especially when there was a No Refunds policy?

I'd have been ranting so loud my neighbors could hear if I bought a cake mix and then had to order a special flour, but couldn't return it. Wouldn't you?

Tutorial authors-figure out what your anticipated target lampworker's skill level is. Then have someone with less skills than that proof your tutorial. Offer a kit, perhaps, of the glass used for your tutorial subject. Accept that some folks want to get down how to do it exactly like in the tutorial, THEN try it their own way, or apply techniques to other things....or never do it their own way at all.
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  #95  
Old 2009-03-12, 7:43pm
Henrywashere Henrywashere is offline
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I havent read the whole of this topic, but I am on the other side. I dont use 104 at all and most tutorials are written for 104. I buy them knowing it is a different glass than what I use - but I am buying it for the technique not so that I can make a complete copy of someone else's bead right down to the colour. If authors had to write disclaimers on their tutorials to suit everyone surely a disclaimer page would become bigger than the tutorial. I would have to say that I have been much more disappointed with buying books than I ever had with buying a tutorial. Because supplies are limited where I live I buy mostly over the internet so all you can see is the cover of a book - the book might get to you and you dont like 1 thing in it. I feel at least with buying a tutorial you really do know what you are getting up front. Surely getting tutorials will build your skills up - I mean do we want to be making a direct copy or do we want to make something that is not immediately recognizable as someone else's work. Tutorial writers are being very generous in sharing the information they have gathered and if it reduces the PPP time for us as we dont have to discover the lightbulb minute of how to do something that we have never thought of before. Its hard to please all the people all of the time - and in fact it is not something you can do.
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  #96  
Old 2009-03-12, 8:12pm
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How about this idea - write the author of the tutorial and ask them what coe is required before you buy it!!
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  #97  
Old 2009-03-16, 8:14am
Diane Gates Diane Gates is offline
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I have the tutorials and used 104 and the beads turned out great. These were really well written and Becky and Diane had great intentions and I am happy that they created them for us.
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  #98  
Old 2009-03-16, 8:41am
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Ok I read through this whole thread and I was kind of stunned that it is still going on. So for whatever it is worth here is my 2 cents. I think henrywashere mirrored my feelings pretty well in the above post. Having taught many people myself in my line of work I have had the opportunity to meet many personalities! I understand that everyone learns differently, but to submit a post that degrades someone that is trying their hardest to give something of their selves to the lampwork community without talking to them directly is just wrong. This really should have been a private matter.
I doubt Becky and Diane are professional writers and it is very hard to think of everything when you are trying to write down how you go about doing something. I have had to write my own teaching materials and it never fails that there is always someone that is more caught up in the mistakes that I made than what it is I am trying to teach! It is very frustrating! Don’t throw stones unless you are without error! If you are trying to point out an error to help the person that is different.
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  #99  
Old 2009-03-18, 9:53am
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My 2 cents....I thank each and everyone of the writers of tutorials every day! For those of us who cant travel or afford classes, these are a god-send! I've bought tutorials before just so I can see how in the heck they did that! I've also found that I dont always have the supplies called for, but I adapt and use what I have and get some really cool suprises.

Thanks again to all who take the time to write these toots, I think they are the best and I appreciate them very, very much!
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  #100  
Old 2009-03-21, 11:55am
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I've purchased MANY tutorials from lampworkers here and have to say that I've not been disapointed a single time. I didn't always have the exact glass (color or coe) that they used, but I made due with what I had OR I ordered what I wanted to make it how they described.

I purchase tutorials for the techniques and experience of the author, not to make the exact bead that they are teaching, so to me it's not a big deal if I don't have every single thing on their list.

I'd like to thank every tutorial author out there for sharing your secrets with all of us. I recognize that these tutorials represent many, many hours of your lives and I appreciate your willingness to share. THANK YOU!
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  #101  
Old 2009-03-21, 3:23pm
Carmen Isaacs Carmen Isaacs is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by upinflames View Post
I've purchased MANY tutorials from lampworkers here and have to say that I've not been disapointed a single time. I didn't always have the exact glass (color or coe) that they used, but I made due with what I had OR I ordered what I wanted to make it how they described.

I purchase tutorials for the techniques and experience of the author, not to make the exact bead that they are teaching, so to me it's not a big deal if I don't have every single thing on their list.

I'd like to thank every tutorial author out there for sharing your secrets with all of us. I recognize that these tutorials represent many, many hours of your lives and I appreciate your willingness to share. THANK YOU!
I have to agree with everything you say.

I love tutorials and would just like to say THANKS to all the writers......I can't live without you guys!!

If I don't have the glass.....well I just have to order it!! Oh and I do have to wait. I know this is not always possible for a lot of people out there (trust me I know I live in Africa) but then before you buy the tutorial email the writer and ask what glass is used before you bad mouth anybody.
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  #102  
Old 2009-03-23, 3:35am
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I have also purchased quite a few tutorials and plan on buying many more. One tutorial I had bought I did not have the recommended frit. I played and experimented with some frits that I did have and I came up with something really cute, totally different from the tutorial..but more me..I want to come up with my own style and it doesnt seem fun if you are just torching someone elses beads over and over again. These tuts have helped me with techniques, heat control and a better understanding of glass. I think the authors really conducted themselves with class ans professionalism when they replied to this thread.
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  #103  
Old 2009-03-23, 6:07am
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Artists producing tutorials has been one of the best things to happen in this industry. If you want a really detailed instruction, buy a tutorial. I have produced 32 books published by West of the Moon Publications and several more by other companies. To put out a book with as much information as a tutorial has in it and enough projects, makes a book cost prohibitive. (unless you are going to sell it for 50 or 60 $ )So most books have many projects with just bare bones instructions. These artists go into detail and give a hell of a lot of customer service and support. Plus it's another way to support and spread the $ through the lampwork society.
There are still a few of us here on the forum that Lampworked before there even was a Hot Head on the market and we were using and trying any type of torch that became available. To most of us back then you couldn't just jump on the internet and find Morretti ( I believe back then it cost $10.00 hr. for internet and there were very few sources ). We used Bullseye because it had a tested COE and was readily available in any stained glass shop and distributor. It is a great glass and easily used on a Hot Head. I still teach my students to use it along with Moretti in my beginner classes.
Back then Pam was one of the first lampworkers I met. She was teaching at Las Vegas and I had to have one of her fish. Still have it after 18 years. If you want info on BE ask Pam, she makes the stuff talk.
No two people are alike in any way. Where some of us can fill in the blanks, others have to have the details and be led by the hand, and there is nothing wrong with that. With computers I am brain dead, but with glass I can see in my head what I want, or see a piece and think why didn't I do that. For me glass is easy for others computers are easy.
For others writing is easy, for me, I have to have an editor and be proofed. (ever try to tell someone proofing that yes that is a word and if you change it it changes the meaning of what you are supposed to do.) This doesn't keep me from producing the books. But it does make it harder.
I guess what I'm trying to say is---- these artists are doing us a big favor by sharing what they have the ability to do. Each tut will be different because each of us are. Each of us are going to like one and not another. It's human nature. I have been on the forum almost every day for years. I do not post often. Each of you have your own personality and I feel I know most of you. You are all doing a great job, and if you agree or disagree you have the right to do it.
Geneva
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  #104  
Old 2009-04-10, 3:58pm
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I buy a cake mix it tells me on the outside that I need eggs, oil and water to complete the mix. If I don't have eggs I can substiute egg beaters. If I don't have oil I can substitute with apple sauce, butter or mayo. Might even try lard. I can substitute varous juices for the water.
I may not have the exact cake as shown on the box but I will have a cake that will be edible and maybe even better than the orginal cake. Very very few recipes do I have 100% of ingrediants. I'm always making substitutions.
Tutorials are the same. Take the basic instructions and use what you have. You never know what you may come up with. No tutorial is wasted learning.
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  #105  
Old 2009-04-10, 9:05pm
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Well, I think I speak for the minority, but I would like to know ahead of time what kind of glass the author of a tutorial is using. Be it boro, BE , 104 or something else. I don't think that information is part of any secret recipe and I feel that information should be clearly stated without the buyer having to contact the author. In this case the authors have corrected the description of their tutorial to include that information and that should put this matter to rest for everyone concerned - those who feel comfortable substituting and those who do not.
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  #106  
Old 2009-04-10, 11:23pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdy View Post
Does anybody at all understand the point that I'm trying to make? I'm beginning to feel like a total lunatic!

Birdy
Yes, I get it 100%..........I think the rub is the public post. The attack on you where LE members are questioning your motives is because you are new, therefore you are also prey. I'm sorry you are being attacked for trying to make a suggestion to save future new lampworkers your same frustration. It is a very nice suggestion.

I also purchased a tutorial that suggested a certain glass. When I went looking for it, it was a glass that was out of production. Took me awhile to get over my frustration on that, so I understand what you are trying to say.... CC2
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  #107  
Old 2009-04-11, 12:43am
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I think that it would be nice to have a list of needed and suggested ingredients disclosed before purchase for these tutorials, but really... precisely because they are not always listed beforehand, I assume that I will have to buy some colors that I don't already have. What difference would it make if those new colors I have to buy are COE 104 or COE 96? I could see a big difference if it required COE 33, because that takes a lot more heat and not everyone has the set-up for it. But, typically, those tutorials are labeled as such.

If I want to make a specific bead just like the author, then I expect to have to buy some special glass. If I want to learn a technique and adapt it to my own use, then I expect that I might either buy some new glass or substitute for what I already have. If I knew that I absolutely could not buy another stick of glass and I wanted to know that I could use the tutorial with what I had, I think I would email the author(s) before purchasing.

But again, it would be nice for the needed/suggested colors and any alternatives to be listed when possible - except when listing something might give away a trade secret that should only be revealed upon purchase of the tutorial.

With that said, I don't think these two authors did anything "unethical." I don't think they were out to trick anyone. What could they possibly gain from that? Also, it is pretty common knowledge that the lower the COE, the stiffer the glass, and the easier it is to sculpt. A lot of artists use lower than COE 104 glass for their sculptural beads - not everyone, but enough that it should not be a surprise.

I'm really sorry, Birdy, that you were so frustrated and disappointed. I didn't list my thoughts on this to say that you should have done this or should have though about that, but instead to maybe give food for thought for anyone else contemplating buying a tutorial. Maybe they can think things through and avoid a frustating experience like you have had. And hopefully, your post will encourage more tutorial authors to list the ingredients before purchase. I think that would be nice.
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  #108  
Old 2009-04-11, 2:06am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Donna T. View Post
I buy a cake mix it tells me on the outside that I need eggs, oil and water to complete the mix. If I don't have eggs I can substiute egg beaters. If I don't have oil I can substitute with apple sauce, butter or mayo. Might even try lard. I can substitute varous juices for the water.
I may not have the exact cake as shown on the box but I will have a cake that will be edible and maybe even better than the orginal cake. Very very few recipes do I have 100% of ingrediants. I'm always making substitutions.
Tutorials are the same. Take the basic instructions and use what you have. You never know what you may come up with. No tutorial is wasted learning.

Maybe all of these substitutions are OK, but what if you are a brand new cook without the knowledge to make those substitutions?
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  #109  
Old 2009-04-11, 5:37am
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Baking is a lot more particular than glass. I measure when I bake. I measure when I can (as in "canning"). I don't measure when I cook and I don't measure when I torch (within reason).

If you're a brand new cook, buy yourself a cookbook first, or several. There are good ones out there and I'm currently waiting for my 3rd one (glass, I own more cookbooks than you want to know).

We're talking about hand made stuff here, made by individual people. Tutorials are meant to teach techniques, not for you (whoever) to make the exact same bead.

I'm a newbie myself, and I have a lot of experimenting to do yet, but I would not ever accuse the writer of any tutorial for not letting me know e.g. colors. I would want to know whether something requires boro as I can't do that (HotHead), but it really shouldn't matter whether something is made with any soft glass if it is that.
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  #110  
Old 2009-04-11, 5:57am
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I have a cook book I never use for this very reason.
Every time I tried I didn't have the ingredients needed. It sits on a shelve somewhere collecting dust.
There is a lot of competition and if you want to sell be accommodating.
I'm only buying from someone willing to offer a list of supplies and tools needed.
And if you read the original post she didn't even know what the glass was how in the world do you substitute for something if you don't even know what it is?
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  #111  
Old 2009-04-11, 3:13pm
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I have 14 tutorials (I think that puts me in the tut ho range for sure). I was just looking thru them again and 3 of them call for a color called Blue Iris. I don't have this color and I keep forgetting to order it. (Just sent off an order, whould have been a great time to do it) Two of the tuts I paid for and one was gifted from the author. I'm pretty sure neither told me ahead of time I needed this "odd" (at least to me) color. However, it has not stopped me from learning from the tutorial and trying a different color. So sometimes it didn't turn out as good as the author's and sometimes it was better or I learned even something else by making do. I can still get loads out of the tut before I get that one color I need.

I can see where it would be beneficial to list some of the things needed before buying the tut, but an author can't list some things without giving the whole concept away.

I agree with the earlier post that this could have been handled in a more gentle way. I'm afraid with all the negative posts towards tutorials that we'll have less writers willing to put themselves in the fray.
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  #112  
Old 2009-04-11, 4:16pm
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Lorraine Chandler Lorraine Chandler is offline
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LE as of late has been turning into the Complaint Box of the lampworking world.

You buy a dress from a very nice well to do boutique, very well known and liked owners with excellent reputations....

You get home and see that the dress has a broken zipper.

You go to the store next door to the one you bought the dress at and complain bitterly about the zipper, the owners of the boutique that sold you the dress, how unethical they were and so on an so forth.

That is my view on the original post. Shouldn't have happened. Should have gone straight to the source. Should have taken care of business instead of NEVER even giving the sellers a chance.
Very bad form.....

The ONLY time LE should be used as a complaint box is: if after several attempts, phone calls, Pm's you get no response, no refunds, no answers etc. and even then I feel it is a very negative thing to do and is questionable, but because we have seen results from doing business this way and because it does help people to steer clear from bad sales etc. it has become acceptable.

Lorraine

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  #113  
Old 2009-04-11, 4:36pm
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Quote:
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Forgive me for jumping in, but this is a good example for defining what is purchased when you buy a tutorial. As I understand the tutorial conundrum,presented many a time by many a glass artist among you, the argument is that "refining" of a certain bead type, sculpture type,etc becomes the sole property of the "discovering" artist, subject to the same protection and status as Edisons lightbulb. That may or may not be, but that's not the dogfight I'm looking to roll around in today.(just the main premise for my opinion on the "problem" Birdy has with the tutorial she purchased)
The argument for tutorial sales is one of ownership of a concept that produces an artform that is recognizable to a particular artist . The tutorial's premise is to "share" the process with others. The PROCESS !!! If someone needs the exact color,shape,or
composition of someone elses work, then buy that artist's finished work. The tutorial, any tutorial , is only a means to an end, the road to travel on a journey. I can see listing any special tools one may employ on the journey, but glass type or exact color schemes, not nessecary.Even in the same glass, we all work in somewhat diff. temps. The glass can be stiff or soupy and can mimic different glass types. But what is needed is the initial approache to a particular form.Your own artistic juices should flow strong enough to motor on from there.
So is it a licence to copy, or a road map to a pretty vista. I think the road map. If it's percieved as a licence to copy,I would guess the question of royalties aren't far behind.
As I've confessed before, I'm not totally opposed to tutorial sales, I've purchased tut's myself (Note to Pyper:Your eyecane's are incredible,my Goddess!) and immediately stray from the text after reading.I don't want to be Pyper,I just need help with some forks in the road. And I'm not pulling Pyper pro or con into my argument, just that her tuts are a good example of process sharing rather than copying.
So Birdy, get a grip. Look inward.There's something there or you wouldn't be at a point comfortable enough to complain.Check out the map, gas up the car and begin a journey.
In you.
Kevin
I hate to repeat myself, but this bitch-fest really needs an end.Lets all take a deep breath, be thankful fot the experience shared by authored tut's and move on thru the creative world we all choose to live in.
Peace to all,and above all, play nice!
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  #114  
Old 2009-04-11, 7:33pm
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I'm a "weirdo glass" user, or am I just a weirdo using glass...anywho...I just have to chime in since I use Bullseye. I'm on the other end of the stick, when I buy a tutorial, book or take a class it is a rare case where COE 90 is being used. Every time I buy eductional materials or take a class or workshop I have to figure that it's gonna be 104 COE (it's usually specified "soft" or "boro") and I'll have to glean from it what can be modified for my style and my COE. I don't expect to duplicate, especially when it comes to color or reactions, but I want to learn the "how" of it because maybe I can take the "how" and with a little modification make it work for my "weirdo glass". Tutorial writers please don't stop sharing the "how".
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Bonnie

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  #115  
Old 2009-04-11, 8:13pm
Cassie Cassie is offline
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I think we need a "beating a dead horse" smilie. Seriously.
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  #116  
Old 2009-04-11, 9:03pm
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AlivELampworK AlivELampworK is offline
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i can't believe this thread is still going!
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  #117  
Old 2009-04-11, 9:39pm
Gayetha Gayetha is offline
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The tutorials are great! I bought them, have read them and have had a go at some of the beads - great fun indeed.

I was a bit taken aback when I realised that the glass wasn't stuff I had, but I'll get around that. I suppose it would be good to state in the listing that glass other than 104 is used, but I read the bit that said you could use any glass, and they don't all need to be precisely the same anyway!

I see it as broadening my experience to try to source that glass in the future and see what it is like to use. The stained glass idea is a good one - opens up all sorts of possibilities.

Big thanks to the authors for sharing their techniques with newbies like me. Very much appreciated!
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  #118  
Old 2009-04-11, 10:11pm
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theglasszone theglasszone is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlivELampworK View Post
I can't believe this thread is still going!
I agree!

And since I think this thread should have been buried a while back, I'll add this Emoticon to Ali's. This one includes the "P.U." effect - hence the flies - proving the horse is truly ready for the grave! How 'bout we all let it go?



De
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  #119  
Old 2009-04-12, 6:07am
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yellowbird yellowbird is offline
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Poor donkey consider the day and what he was responsible for.
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  #120  
Old 2009-04-13, 7:52am
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Donna T you may have Iris blue in frit form, I believe Val Cox made it. You could pull stringer from that.
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