Northern Shed Dweller Terrified of oxygen

[uneeec]

Hi! I am Extremely green, I have been wanting to do this for a very long time. and It has taken a very long time to get everything together so I could. I am this (-) close to cranking up the torch.

However I have several concerns and the questions to go along with them.

So that you have a bit of background, I made up a diagram of my so called "studio"/shed set up. I live in northern ontario, where -45 degrees is
a common occourance.




The shed is nearly wired with a ceiling light, 5 outlets, the kiln has it's own devoted 20 amp breaker. I have still to have the breakers put in the house and connect to the shed with the fuses.

The compressed Oxygen scares the crap out of me. I just picked up the tank the other day, and put it in the shed and have had the shakes ever since. It doesn't help that I read posts in the forums that have served to scare me even more.

I printed out a page from another forum which I think Dale actually wrote. It served to be very helpful to me in hooking up my hoses. So I have atleast got that far. Until, I read that using dish soap to check for leaks will blow me up. So I backed off, next day I resolved to do it anyway, after talking to my dad who has been around welding equipment forever and a canadian glass supplier. Both said go for it. So off I go with a lil container of soapy water and a paint brush, I turned the oxygen full open. and started at the stem of the tank to make sure the tank connections themselves were good and solid. I didn't notice any bubbles. However when I went to wipe up the liquid with the cloth I brought out from the house, I couldn't help but notice a warm sensation on my fingers. Yeah, I jumped. I might of even gave a lil shout out to the big guy. "please don't blow up!" I quickly turned the knob to the closed position and walked away. If it was going to blow up I wanted a little space between me and the explosion. While outside I realised the cloth in my hand is warm to the touch, having come from the house and bin held in my clutches ever since. It dawns on me, that this is where the warm sensation on my frozen fingertips has come from. ( let cooler heads prevail I say.)

A little unsure I went back in the shed creeking the door open, as if the door might protect me a little bit if it did decide to blow.

I ignored the oxygen and went to check the propane. For some reason the propane doesn't bother me at all. Perhaps it's because when you tell someone you picked up a bottle of propane for your bbq no one says " you watch you don't blow yourself up!! ) its just a more common household item and people are more familiar.

I just pulled the tank off my BBQ , so when I went to turn on the regulator it went to 5, and stopped ( I am assuming it is because the tank is on E or very near empty). but when I back off the regulater pressure it stayed at 5, Why is that? I burped the torch to let the propane out of the line and that was the end of my adventure until I can pick up a fresh can of propane today.

If you look at the diagram the tanks are to my back. I don't like that. It is an uncomfortable feeling, like walking down the middle of the road, you can hear a car comming behind you, but you can't turn to see, or get out of it's way.

One idea I had was to pull my work bench back more to the middle of the shed. sit with my back to the wall ( that the tanks are currently against ) and put the tanks infront of me in the oposit corner. But I worry that possibly heat from the torch could, or would cause a problem with heat blowing in that general direction. Would I be right, Or just being a nitwit?

I would like even better (I think) to have the tanks outside the shed. But this too has it's pro's and cons. Could I do that by drilling a hole in the wall and just running the hoses outside using the current hoses, and regulators. Do I need to be able to see the regulators while I'm working? Can they take the cold weather? From my understanding the oxygen will run smooth, but the propane will sputter and spit in the cold. Now, when I was a kid, my dad hooked up a propane stove in the house. He plumbed the propane into the house to the stove using copper pipes. And I don't recal sputtering and spitting of the propane ever being a concern. Is this because the propane tank was 3 - 4 times larger than a BBQ tank? or because cooking on a stove top is less delicate than using the torch to melt glass?

Other irrational fears regarding the gas/s. That I will turn on the light and blow up. That the heat from a heater, that I will absolutly have to have in the shed will over heat a tank some how, and Kabooom it's all over.

So that's my chicken head tale. any rational soothing words, suggestions or comments would be more than appreciated.

Nancy

[squid]

I am not sure about the oxy tank - someone else will chime in I am sure - but you 100% for certain need to have the propane outside. Either unhook the hose each time you use it or hard pipe it through the wall.

[Diane (clarus)]

Yes, the propane needs to be outside. Period. There are plenty of discussions here in the Safety forum that talk about that.

I think the oxy tank can be kept inside, but why don't you go for an oxygen concentrator? I don't know what kind of torch you have, but unless you're doing large boro scuptures one of these will not only be safer but will be cheaper in the long run.

[jessicajane]

I work in a shed set up much like yours. I'm outside in Alberta - so same kinda weather. My shed has no heat, just a space heater. I have had both my oxygen and my propane tank in the shed with me for two years and never had a problem. Not sure why everyone thinks your propane needs to be outside, most lampworkers I know keep it by your bench just like your O2. As long as your venting is good, you'll be okay. The cold has never bothered my propane, and I torch in VERY cold weather sometimes! Don't be too freaked out by the gas - remember welders haul these things around in their trucks all day. With some basic safety measures and time, you will get used to it and become comfortable that you will not blow yourself up! The biggest thing is to make sure your O2 tank is chained to something to keep it from falling over. Happy Torching - and stay WARM!

[Just Nancy]

I think part of the propane being outside is an American safety thing, and people not having propane in their basements or apartment complex. I've seen people post that it is common in Europe. I am in an ag building so it met building codes for the breif time I had it there.

My oxy tank is inside chained to the wall. I personally have no safety concerns from having it there. Heck, the oxy company delivered one to my folks and just set it in the closet for emergency use. (Similar size)

That said leaking oxygen can technically be a problem. The welding guys tell me that your clothes etc can absorb the oxygen and oxygen rich items burn faster than non enriched items. That said, people have oxygen tanks in their homes all the time, many even smoke and have candles (not considered safe, but only some have issues).

I would leave my oxygen inside, but I can't say about checking for leaks. Hubby hooks mine up and we presume it doesn't leak. The space is complete and my propane is now hard plumbed and was checked for leaks.

If you were closer I'd invite you over to calm your nerves. Good luck.

[Curly Irish Girl]

Get that propane tank OUTSIDE!!!! Also if scared of O2 tank, consider using an oxygen concentrator....none of the safety concerns as having a tank....

[uneeec]

Ok, Propane can go outside. Can I run the line outside through the window hook it up, and unhook it bringing the regulater end back in each time I use it? Can I put the oxygen outside with it?

This brings up new questions. If keeping the propane tank warm is a concern, where is a good place to locate the tank? should I just put it next to the building out the window? should I place it under the exaust vent so possibly warm air from the torch might take the chill off it a little bit? Or is that a bad idea? and should I build an insulated box for the tanks to sit in, should I wrap the tank with a bundle of insulation. the list of questions goes on and on.

After all this fear I will be eventually investing in an oxygen concentrator looks as though the people with one seem to breath atlot easier. right now I do not have the $$ and will have to pay down the CC a little bit before making the investment. So I'm stuck with the tank, atleast for now anyways.

I have a Nortel Major Minor torch that should be small enough to use an oxygen concentrator right?

[Sue in Maine]

You NEED to get that propane tank outside. Please read this thread through carefully:

http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/sh...E+TANKS+INSIDE

and this one

http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/sh...E+TANKS+INSIDE

and this one

http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/sh...E+TANKS+INSIDE

It gets said over and over and we still have peeps who don't set their systems up safely. No wonder Mike and Dale want to bang their heads on a wall. Please get your tanks outside. Seriously, this is for YOUR safety and the safety of those around you.


Sue

[uneeec]

Jesica, just me, ( nancy )

I hear what you both are saying and I know my fear factor level is well blown out of proportion. I grew up around this stuff, garages with welding equipment, oil spills and cans floating all over the place. I would never give it a second thought. then I read some threads about oil and oxygen, and I am all a rattle.

It's like the flash back arrestors. My dad, whos been a mechanic for 50 od years assures me I don't need them, stating that in all his years he has never heard of a flame creeping back up a hose and blowing up a tank. After talking to the "gasguy" he says it's more if the hose itself is going to become damaged. perhaps hot solder drops on it, the hose gets steped on with a sharp piece of steel underneith piercing the line. I figure, I'm working with glass, if a shard happends to land on the floor and I unknowingly step on it I could be in for trouble. So I got the flashback arrestors just to be on the safe side.

I know I'll eventually relax and become familiar with the set up. Then all I have to worry about is becoming complacent.

Nancy

[jessicajane]

Uneeec:
It is important to follow the basic safety rules and if you can put your propane outside, all the better. But don't let all of these safety threads scare you away from using a torch or tanked oxygen. I promise you will get used to it and not be afraid, it's not that big of a deal - really!

If your propane tank is outside, you may have to keep it in some kind of shed to protect it from our cold Canadian wind, and if it gets really cold you might have to warm it up a bit because it will freeze up past about -20.

[squid]

Flash back arrestors are really only necessary if you have a pre-mix torch - if you have a surface mix torch like a Minor, Mini CC, Cricket, Bobcat, etc, you really don't need them.

[Just Nancy]

Originally Posted by uneeec

Jesica, just me, ( nancy )

I hear what you both are saying and I know my fear factor level is well blown out of proportion.
It's like the flash back arrestors. ...... After talking to the "gasguy" he says it's more if the hose itself is going to become damaged. perhaps hot solder drops on it, the hose gets steped on with a sharp piece of steel underneith piercing the line. I figure, I'm working with glass, if a shard happends to land on the floor and I unknowingly step on it I could be in for trouble. So I got the flashback arrestors just to be on the safe side.

I know I'll eventually relax and become familiar with the set up. Then all I have to worry about is becoming complacent.

Nancy

Howdy 'me' ,

I have flashback arrestors because I can't imagine lighting my torch without them. The supply guys weren't sure it was necessary. Then they gave me a look like, but you're a woman maybe you'd better get them. (grrr)

The hose issue is a 'concern'. Not a huge one in my book, especially again with the oxygen but it is an issue. Hot glass flying around could damage them. (Technically) So check them on occasion. If you put your hoses in and out the window check them on occasion too.

The edge of my bench is apparently rougher than I realized. It was rubbing on the hoses into my torch. (Still gas/oxy but at the torch, not the lines from the welding supply house.) Happily it damaged the cover but the plastic inside remained secure. I think they are pretty significant. But they can rub so I'd be sure to check them on occasion. If the cover gets boogered up check to be sure the inside is still in tact before using.

You'll be ok and the initial stress will be worth it.

Nancy

[Curly Irish Girl]

I live in N. Wisconsin....and my propane tank sits outside - hole cut in my studio wall with the propane hose running into my torch....my DH built a little "house" that it sits in so the snows don't accumulate and it's easy to change when it runs out....we get days of -20-30 and I've never had a problem.....

[KEW]

Chain your oxy tank. (I'm terrified of oxy tanks, too.)

Propane can be piped in from the tank through the wall. Affords you the luxury of a valve and a regulator both outside and inside. Black pipe.

[hotblubonnet]

The oxygen tank does need to be "secured" in some way. The danger is not from it "exploding" per se...but from it falling over and getting punctured in some way or the end getting knocked off. The tank would basically become a projectile or rocket from the escape of the pressurized oxygen.

Also, the oxygen ITSELF is not what is flammable. The oxygen makes anything flammable burn better or faster. I mean...think about how the oxygen functions IN the torch flame. If you just turn on the oxy and try and light it, what happens? Nothing...nada...except maybe the flame of the lighter gets a boost.

As for the propane inside...keep mine next to the bench, next to the oxygen. I do however make sure that it is totally off when done torching...and burn off what is in the line. Now...the spot i keep it in..it is right next to the garage door which in summer is open when i am torching usually...if I put it outside there would only be a thin layer of metal (the garage door) between me and it.

[uneeec]

Plenty to think about eh, I did secure the oxy tank, perhaps not very well. I used a length of strapping, formed a loop big enough to slip the bottom of the tank down into. and the strapping is secured with screws to the wall. The tank is also in the corner. I would have to go at it pretty hard to cause it to fall forward, or it would have to go through the wall to damage the plumbing. Once I decide where it goes. I'll make it more secure with a wooden style brace. unless of course I decide to put it outside with the propane.

As for the oxygen being not so much flamable as it is an excelerant for anything that is already on fire, I don't have to worry so much provided my connections are nice tight and leak free. On the other hand, if I do have a leak and I flick a light switch, cause a spark of some kind the little spark can turn into a big kaboom? So oxygen can't make grease catch fire, it can only excellerate a fire once it's been lit. Do I have that right? Believe it or not, if I am understanding you correctly, it is definatley a load off.

As for building a container outside for the tanks to rest in, sounds like the best route for me to take, ease of mind and all that, not to mention it will free up space in my lil dwelling. I think 3 feet off the ground aught to be good for keeping the snow from piling up around them. I think it's safe to say for the location of the shed, and knowing which way the wind blows around here it is likely I will be looking at atleast 3 foot high snow drifts all around me. A question or 2 of course for those who have them. Is the box around the tank complete with 4 sides and a lid? is the entire box insulated. and lastly if I understand correctly, I will need to leave holes in the bottom incase there is a leak so that propane will not accumulate. Question is, do the holes have to be big, or will a couple of 1/2 inch drill holes here and there around the edge do the trick?

One last question about the hoses, perhaps a silly one, but does it matter how long the hoses are? I guess I'm asking, if the hose is long and wound, looped and coiled, up the wall over and under to get to the torch does this effect the flo of fuel or oxygen to the tank. (without pinches of course)
the same way the exaust vent will not work to par when it has bends in the pipes?


BTW, thank you all so much for your oppinions, it is indeed a great help!

Nancy

[Just Nancy]

Originally Posted by uneeec

Plenty to think about eh,

As for the oxygen being not so much flamable as it is an excelerant for anything that is already on fire, I don't have to worry so much provided my connections are nice tight and leak free. On the other hand, if I do have a leak and I flick a light switch, cause a spark of some kind the little spark can turn into a big kaboom?

Question is, do the holes have to be big, or will a couple of 1/2 inch drill holes here and there around the edge do the trick?

One last question about the hoses, perhaps a silly one, but does it matter how long the hoses are? I guess I'm asking, if the hose is long and wound, looped and coiled, up the wall over and under to get to the torch does this effect the flo of fuel or oxygen to the tank. (without pinches of course)
the same way the exaust vent will not work to par when it has bends in the pipes?


BTW, thank you all so much for your oppinions, it is indeed a great help!

Nancy

What I can tell you is my understanding. I'm not a safety guru. As I understand it, the flicking of a switch might ignite propane, but not oxygen. I'll check that with hubby or my kids.

The holes don't need to be be huge. As I understand it they are simply to let any possible gas escape. It is heavier than air so if it would escape it would pool in the bottom of the closure/basin/etc. So providing holes insures that if it leaks it has a place to escape.

My hoses are probably 25 feet long and coiled on the floor. Possibly not the safest, but it doesn't impact the flame. (Answer your question?)

I have a couple pictures here for reference. I'd post them but they'd be huge. www.baublesbynancy.com/nancyland.htm
You can pretty much see it coiled in front of the chair. And for the safety gurus the room is now finished and is no longer a bbq tank. (Although it was to code before because of the type of building.)

[uneeec]

Oh WOW, "me" compared to my hovel, you could call your studio DisneyLand. Is that a fire place I see on the wall (in the progress pictures). I'll have to keep that in mind when we build our garage. in 2 years or so.

And yes, you did answer my questions. I'm feeling much better about the whole situation infact.

Nancy :d

[KEW]

Can't give you the technical reasons, but longer than neccessary hoses are undesirable.

[Curly Irish Girl]

The little tank house my propane sits in is about 8 inches off the surface of our deck - the tank I use is the size for our grill....the box itself is about 3 1/2 ft tall - it has a floor, a roof and 3 sides - the open side is away from the primary wind/snow direction.....I'll have to see if I can find a picture....

[Just Nancy]

Originally Posted by uneeec

Oh WOW, "me" compared to my hovel, you could call your studio DisneyLand. Is that a fire place I see on the wall (in the progress pictures). I'll have to keep that in mind when we build our garage. in 2 years or so.

And yes, you did answer my questions. I'm feeling much better about the whole situation infact.

Nancy :d

Actually I got the left over space because he wanted the storage above these two rooms. Before that I was huddled between two garage doors on a 2 foot table.

The heater you saw, is an lp space heater of sorts often used to heat garages in the US. It burns an open flame sort of behind the screen. It keeps both spaces nice and warm when needed.

[Dale M.]

The primary reasoning for having propane tank outside, is that propane is a heavier than air gas. It tends to pool in low spots. Like at floor level... Any "pooling propane" can become explosive if it gets the right "fuel/air" mix and is exposed to a ignition source.

The reason to keep it outside it that tank is usually exposed to air currents that carry off the leaking propane and causes it to be diluted in the "fresh air" to a point it is not a explosive hazard...

Although the requirement is NFPA code in US, its also simple physics, applies to all tank all over the world.... There is no escaping it...

The danger of oxygen tanks is not so much from the fact that is a oxidizer and flame accelerant, its from the physical danger of tank falling over and breaking off tank valve. This causes a sudden release of pressure inside much like releasing a blow up balloon.... Tank can become a active missile and will break or destroy anything in its path.... MYTH BUSTERS did a episode on this on TV and the did manage to sent a large tank through a 8 inch concrete block wall... But your results may vary....

Simply keep oxygen tank chained to wall so it can't fall over. IF moving tank, keep safety cap on...

Dale