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Tips, Techniques, and Questions -- Technical questions or tips |
2009-05-15, 6:19pm
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Cali4nia baby
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my anealing schedule is garage at 710 3 - 4 hours sit 30 mins then up to 929 for 77 mins down 150/per hr to 849 for 17 minutes then down 239/hr to 443 then off. I have had mine come out of kiln with cracks and a couple have cracked within the 24 hrs after. A couple cracked down middle but across not up & down - wierd ?
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2009-05-15, 6:32pm
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da General
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Did you mean garage at 910 and not 710?
You may want to ramp down at 100/hr instead of 150/hr - I ramp down at 72/hr.
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Hayley
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2009-05-16, 2:03am
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boro color bender
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I ramp at 60 per hour from soak temp to strain (hold at strain for 30 minutes) and then off for my pendant/bead size work. I'd say the electricity most people use below strain point would serve them much better going slower above strain point. After strain point all you're trying to avoid is thermal shock... and unless you open the kiln, it's a non-issue for smaller work. Especially if you've got a fire brick kiln. If you have a Chili-pepper or something similar, you can have a kiln shelf cut down to ad thermal mass. Arrow Springs made one for mine and I love it. A few kiln posts work too, but take up space...
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2009-05-16, 4:05am
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Actually thermal shock is a very real concern for those of us doing sculptural bead work in soft glass of any size, so I definitely will continue my conservative annealing schedule down to 400. Larger beads are much more susceptible to thermal shock so annealing down to 400 or even room temperature is best. The slower your annealing schedule, the less susceptible to cracking at any temp. I hate the idea of putting hours of work into making a bead or beads and then, because I want to see it a few hours sooner, speed up the annealing process. Of course below the strain point it is not really annealing, but cooling at that point.
Abe didn't say what size beads he made to attempt to duplicate the issues that many have experienced, did he? I would be curious about that and also the annealing schedule he used.
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Pam
"It is easier to perceive error than to find truth, for the former lies on the surface and is easily seen, while the latter lies in the depth, where few are willing to search for it." Johann Wolfgang Von Goeth
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2009-05-16, 4:43am
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Cali4nia baby
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Nope, no mistake, I garage at 710 - never had problems until now either. These have worked well for everything but a few cim colors, which need higher annealing temp. apparently. I had very few broken beads, possibly 2 out of 40 or 50 - until a week ago when the amount tripled when using DC to encase. I have a top loading Jenken, so it stays hot pretty long. But if garaging higher is important I can jump it up a bit, but it is HOT putting those beadies in....ouchy
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2009-05-16, 6:15am
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Garaging below the strain point allows your beads to cool to below the point where breakage occurs due to stress. It's sort of like putting your beads into vermiculite to cool instead of putting them straight into the kiln. There is nothing wrong with batch annealing, which is essentially what you are doing when you heat your beads back up and anneal, except cracks can occur from stress.
Curiously, what is your purpose in garaging at 710?
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Pam
"It is easier to perceive error than to find truth, for the former lies on the surface and is easily seen, while the latter lies in the depth, where few are willing to search for it." Johann Wolfgang Von Goeth
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2009-05-16, 7:29am
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Salt Box Beads
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Hi Pam..I think it is because she has a top loader and it is very hard to add beads quickly that way.
There must a huge blast of heat when opening a top loader to add beads and then having to look down into the kiln and put your beads in must be difficult????
Lorraine
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2009-05-16, 7:57am
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boro color bender
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Depending on what your element arrangement is Pam, you may be adding stress to your beads when your kiln cycles on. Your beads only get direct heat on the side facing the elements and this can blast part of the glass with high temps, creating some weird stresses. I know marble makers that need to go slower below strain point, because of size. Maybe some sculptural folks do too, but I've not heard or experienced anybody really losing beads by turning off the kiln at strain point, if they went slow enough and actually "annealed" the glass. I'm sure there are some situations that would benefit from a slower cooling rate after strain, but I would ad thermal mass to slow it and not subject glass at 400 degrees to a blast from an element. Maybe you shield your work from a direct blast... in this case, it's OK to run it on down to 400... just something to think about.
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2009-05-16, 8:24am
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I disagree with your hypothesis, Brent. Unless I am doing something small I always anneal down to 400 degrees. If I am doing something that is very small or almost flat, I will stop the cycle at 5 or 600. I'm not sure about your kiln, but as mine cycles it only changes the temp approximately 5 degrees. Yes, there is more heat directed inside the kiln but since it is only for around 30 seconds before it cycles off, it shouldn't affect the overall temp of the bead that much. Perhaps your kiln operates differently, I don't know. I definitely can confirm that there can be significant thermal cracking below the strain point.
Hi Lorraine, I disregarded the top-loader part because I have used top loaders in classes at certain venues for years and years and never had that much of a problem. I used a long leather glove and kept my face from being over the kiln when I opened the lid. But perhaps you are right and that is her reasoning. The problem I see with that is when you open a top-loader the heat rushes out, so the temp drops dramatically. If it's already at 710, then it may drop to 610, or whatever. True, the beads won't drop in temp that much, but it really depends on how long the kiln takes to get back up to 710, which is already below strain point. So, I guess all in all it's not going to matter much. The beads are below strain point. Whatever strain is in them is there and not being mitigated because it's garaging at a temp above strain. Thermal cracking has already taken place, though I would think the constant up and down at that low a temp may cause more thermal cracking. However she is not experiencing significant cracking, so perhaps her beads are small.
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Pam
"It is easier to perceive error than to find truth, for the former lies on the surface and is easily seen, while the latter lies in the depth, where few are willing to search for it." Johann Wolfgang Von Goeth
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2009-05-16, 8:56am
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Storm Queen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Smiley
Depending on what your element arrangement is Pam, you may be adding stress to your beads when your kiln cycles on. Your beads only get direct heat on the side facing the elements and this can blast part of the glass with high temps, creating some weird stresses. I know marble makers that need to go slower below strain point, because of size. Maybe some sculptural folks do too, but I've not heard or experienced anybody really losing beads by turning off the kiln at strain point, if they went slow enough and actually "annealed" the glass. I'm sure there are some situations that would benefit from a slower cooling rate after strain, but I would ad thermal mass to slow it and not subject glass at 400 degrees to a blast from an element. Maybe you shield your work from a direct blast... in this case, it's OK to run it on down to 400... just something to think about.
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Well I have lost a bead by doing that, not by choice though. My power went out when my kiln was at about 800 degrees and when I pulled out my beads the next day, one of my dot beads had a crack through a dot. Something that had never happened before and hasn't since. However, my mandrels do stick out of the bead door. I have an Arrow Springs fire brick kiln and I anneal at 980 for an hour and a half, ramp down 60 degrees per hour to 840, hold an hour, ramp down 60 degrees per hour to 700 and then ramp down 100 degrees per hour to 400 and off. I would never just shut my kiln off any time below 400 degrees.
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2009-05-18, 12:15pm
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Salt Box Beads
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I am waiting on pins and needles...I hope they find the reason soon as I just read that they use diamond clear as the base glass for all of the silver glasses.
Hopefully it wouldn't be enough in the silver glass to cause problems???
Lorraine
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2009-05-19, 9:11am
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Tacki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2 TOUCANS
I am waiting on pins and needles...I hope they find the reason soon as I just read that they use diamond clear as the base glass for all of the silver glasses.
Hopefully it wouldn't be enough in the silver glass to cause problems???
Lorraine
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I really don't know. In the meantime, I've taken the rest of my DC (the stuff I didn't use, send to Abe or Squid) and just put it aside, clearly labeled. All of the rest of the Precision 104 glass I have is pretty old, so I'm not having any problems with that.
I wonder what Abe has found out, if he's even had time to check it yet. He sounded like he's been pretty busy.
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2009-05-22, 12:49pm
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I just wanted to give everyone a heads up on the Diamond Clear. We spent over $2000 trying to find out what the problem is with the beads that have cracked made with DC and we have not found out much, so what we would like to do is replace all of the DC that people bought from Ron if it is causing cracking. We sold Ron only 20 lbs of this batch and we already know that there is 6 lbs that people are not having problems at all. So this means that there is ONLY 14 lbs of this glass in other peoples hands. Please PM me when you bought your DC and also how much you bought and we will replace it free of charge and we are going to put a few goodies in the boxes to help with the loss of the beads. We have also recieved over 25 beads from people that said that DC cracked there beads and we have been able to fix half of them, we put the cracked beads in the kiln at 1050 for 1 hour, then we puntied up with a peice of DC and slowly put them in the flame and healed the cracks, this worked great with almost all the beads we tried this with. This is just food for thought. But after talking to many people about this they thought it must be thermal shock because we fixed beads that were cracked before, I am not sure if I agree with this but it sounds like it could be true. We tested for COE, viscocity and stress we did find with a few beads that there was quite a bit of stress in the glass but we are not sure if that is what cracked the beads. We feel like we were going down the rabbit hole on this one and could not nail down what made these beads crack.Sorry Thank all of you who took time to test and give feedback about this problem we really need this help when problem's come up.
Abe
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2009-05-22, 1:02pm
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Abe, thank you so much. You have done what many other manufacturers don't do or can't do when there is a problem. You are the consumate gentleman. I hope that all the problems will go away with the replacement of those 14 pounds of glass.
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Pam
"It is easier to perceive error than to find truth, for the former lies on the surface and is easily seen, while the latter lies in the depth, where few are willing to search for it." Johann Wolfgang Von Goeth
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2009-05-22, 1:06pm
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da General
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Abe - thank you for trying to get this issue figured out.
I know of at least two others (via pm) who had the same cracking issues using DC from Frantz, bought in March. Will you replace those as well?
I hope that future batches will not have this problem for so many of us rely on DC with our silver glass!
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Hayley
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2009-05-22, 1:27pm
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Thanks Abe for all of your time and testing! See you at GAS in 2 weeks!
Paula
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2009-05-22, 3:22pm
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Salt Box Beads
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Thanks Abe for all of the time, money and effort you spent on trying to solve this for the glass community.
Lorraine
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2009-05-22, 5:06pm
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Cali4nia baby
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What a Class act ~
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2009-05-23, 12:12am
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Tacki
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Thanks for all of your hard work Abe.
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2009-05-23, 5:04am
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Thanks Abe, that is very classy indeed. I appreciate all the time and work that you put into testing this issue.
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Judith
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2009-05-23, 6:13am
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So, where does this really leave us? Hayley, any ideas? Abe did say that quite a bit of stress showed up in some of the beads.
I think we all need to be stringer testing when we are using any glass that we are not absolutely sure of. Even when it is a normal color that you have used for years, a certain batch can be off. I think my half-way safe motto is, when in doubt, test. If a bead cracks using normal glass that I always use, then I test. If I am using a new combination of glasses, test first so I don't cry later.
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Pam
"It is easier to perceive error than to find truth, for the former lies on the surface and is easily seen, while the latter lies in the depth, where few are willing to search for it." Johann Wolfgang Von Goeth
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2009-05-23, 6:39am
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Rose colored glasses…√
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I have a whole bunch that I've not even taken out of the bubble wrap. Can anyone tell me which particular batch (date) it is that's suspect? I don't think I'll have problems because I don't heavily encase anything, but still...
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2009-05-23, 8:54am
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Sucks at being nice
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Abe, thanks for going to so much trouble to try and figure this out! I don't have any of the problem batch but I have been watching this thread. Your actions have confirmed what an upstanding company you have and I will continue to spend the extra dollars for Diamond Clear. It is worth a few extra bucks to know that you stand behind your product 100% and will make right any problems!
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2009-05-23, 9:03am
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Catnip Pusher
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeepinwelch
Abe, thanks for going to so much trouble to try and figure this out! I don't have any of the problem batch but I have been watching this thread. Your actions have confirmed what an upstanding company you have and I will continue to spend the extra dollars for Diamond Clear. It is worth a few extra bucks to know that you stand behind your product 100% and will make right any problems!
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My sentiments exactly! I switched to Diamond Clear at the beginning of the year, and have also been watching this thread carefully. This is exactly the sort of customer service and responsiblility you get from the best of companies. I will also continue to use any of your glass without hesitation.
Thank you for being one of the best!
Aimee
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2009-05-23, 10:03am
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Storm Queen
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I just got my 5 pounds of Diamond Clear from Ron so obviously I'll gladly support your glass Abe!
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2009-05-23, 10:13am
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Rose colored glasses…√
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5 pounds? I've never ordered 5 pounds of anything...not even cumulative.
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2009-05-23, 10:21am
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Storm Queen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrissij
5 pounds? I've never ordered 5 pounds of anything...not even cumulative.
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That's nothing compared to what some people buy. 30 pounds of one color? I can't even fathom that. Where do they store it all?
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2009-05-23, 10:34am
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Rose colored glasses…√
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We have over a thousand pounds of clay...
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2009-05-23, 11:57am
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Could those of you who had cracking problems with the DC post or pm me their annealing schedules, if you don't mind? I think we did this, but someone made a suggestion that I would like to do a little research into and it would help enormously.
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Pam
"It is easier to perceive error than to find truth, for the former lies on the surface and is easily seen, while the latter lies in the depth, where few are willing to search for it." Johann Wolfgang Von Goeth
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2009-05-23, 1:11pm
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Pam - whenever I get a new glass (usually is silver glass) or a new batch, I do a few test beads to figure out the reactions, etc. . . . I usually only combine it with one other glass and with clear. I have done that with Double Helix Aether (it brings out different reaction with some silver glass than what Diamond Clear does) . . . I will surely do that with Diamond Clear from now on. Perhaps I should add stringer test to my routine.
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Hayley
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