Which Torch?

[bhhco]

No. You use the small tip for small projects (beads) and the large tip for large projects (goblets). You chose the tip for the "size" of the project and keep it on the whole time.

Me

[Dale M.]

Originally Posted by Bob Torbett

I've got to rule the 8M out based on the fact of the multiple tips. In order to change the flame you have to shut the torch down, change tips then restart. I've got to rule the 8M out based on the fact of the multiple tips. In order to change the flame you have to shut the torch down, change tips then restart. I don't think this could be accomplished while making a bead without loosing the heat in the glass to the point of causing problems bringing it back up, while on other torches you just adjust to your needs. In other words you can't change flame characteristics on the fly. Am I wrong in making this presumption?

IF the scenario you present were true that you needed to change flame/torch size for different portion of project, then you would have to have multiple torches in your studio for different processes on different portion of beads with any torches previously mentioned ... You logic seems to be flawed here because original concept of thread is what torch might be best --Meaning single torch -- I only argue National because it is more versatile for application size and less cost than any other combination of torches you may have to have for various sized projects... If one starts with a minor at $170 and then want something larger for other projects it is $400 at least for additional bigger torch (you now have $570 invested) and TWO torches... IF you start with National 8M and SM 7 tip its $200 ... To move up to larger torch (for large projects) its only $96 for BIGGER TIP... Saving about $275....

Dale

[bhhco]

Originally Posted by Bob Torbett

After looking at the Rider, I'm concerned with the placement of the valves.
Bob

How on earth did the Rider slip in here? I think what was suggested was a 8M... the torch under the Rider. There is an adapter for the 8M (NOT the Rider) that slips into the 8M body to accept pre-mix tips.

BTW, the 8M surface mix tips are SM 5, SM 7, and SM 21. Pick a project size... pick a tip... I always screw up the number of actual ports in each tip, like SM7 is 7 (but it's oxygen not fuel ports), the SM21 is more but isn't 21... heck... I'm already confused... help Dale!). Bottom line... at least historically... more ports, bigger flame, bigger project.

Bob... are you writting a book? If so, add Valves (since you mentioned it, and a eariler post did too). Not where they are placed... but how easy is it to control the flame character. Are "steering" the valves like driving a hummer or a porsche? Or does it even really matter as long as it gets you to your destination?

Me

[kbinkster]

Originally Posted by Bob Torbett

I've got to rule the 8M out based on the fact of the multiple tips. In order to change the flame you have to shut the torch down, change tips then restart. I don't think this could be accomplished while making a bead without loosing the heat in the glass to the point of causing problems bringing it back up, while on other torches you just adjust to your needs. In other words you can't change flame characteristics on the fly. Am I wrong in making this presumption?

After looking at the Rider, I'm concerned with the placement of the valves. Why on earth would someone place the gas valves angled forward putting them closer to the flame. Especally when mounted on a larger torch. This design makes no sense to me. I may be fairly new to the lampworking arena, but I have worked with welding equipment for over 40 years and have never seen anything so poorly designed, especally from a well known torch manufacturer. This makes me wonder who they have hired in their R&D division. They need a visit to the "REAL WORLD". IMHO

Bob

Well, Bob, I think that you bring up some good points.

Some people like to use the larger tip to make larger items, but then, when you want to focus the flame (like for doing detail work on these larger items), you would be limited as to how narrow you could get it. You do have some adjustment within each tip, but, I tell you what - if I needed a wide flame like what is available on an SM-21, I would still like for it to be able to get down to a small point to do melt-ins and such. How small could you go on an 8M with the SM-21 tip?

It's interesting that National/Premier has holes for the oxygen and slots for the fuel gas. It's usually the other way around for surface mix torches.

And about the Rider, Dale brought that up.

Valve placement is important for exactly the reason you mention, Bob. It doesn't matter how smooth the valves are if they are placed so close to the face that it is too hot to use them or if they are arranged in such a funky way that they are too awkward to use.

Just as a side note, Wale Apparatus used to say that when Carlisle came out with the Mini CC, the valves were up close to the face of the torch and that Carlisle only moved them back after they (Wale) pointed it out to them that they would get too hot to use.

[Bob Torbett]

Well I think this thread has gotten out of control. Thank all of you for the input. I didn't mean to start any arguments between anyone or suggest that anyone was wrong about their views concerning various torches. I was just looking for persons likes and dislikes about various torches. Based on that input and looking at a lot of the tech data on these torches, I have decided the Bobcat is the torch I will purchase.
Dale, I have used many National torches over the years since they have been making welding torches for many years. Some of them I think are better than Victor, and that is saying a lot. I think their products are about the best in the industry for that purpose. I just don't think the 8M fits my needs. I might consider the 8M with the Rider if they redesign the valves on the rider to get them behind the heat shield.

Thanks again to everyone for the input.

Bob

[bhhco]

Excellent choice!

Me

[kbinkster]

I'm glad you decided on a torch.

I hope my post did not sound like I was talking bad about the 8M or arguing about anything. I just have the same questions/concerns about the 8M as you do. It is not a torch that I am overly familiar with - I have seen them, and have talked to people about them, but don't have experience running one myself. I really would like to know how small the flame can get while using the SM-21 tip. And about the oxygen holes and fuel slots, that's just an observation - nothing more.

I am a tool junkie, so all torches interest me. I haven't found one yet that hasn't.

[HardwoodTrailGlass]

Cathy, I'd get a Lynx, my own personal preference
That is what I started working Boro w/ until I upgraded to a Phantom.