Connecting tanks and oxycons

Jaterwunky · #1 2010-08-11, 5:27pm

HELP
question for ya... I have both tanked and concentrators... My problem is I can't rig up to switch... Ie I have to disconnect frrom oxycons and then reconnect to tank or backwards.... The only y connector I can find is one way valve unfortunately it goes wrong way and don't want to damage my sieves in my concentrators.... Anybody have a system for this. Tight now I only have a lynx so no footpedal although I am wondering if I jury rig a foopedal for my lynx... Can it be done anyone????
My problem of the day.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunyip
Remember - oxy concentrations get higher as you lower the output from the concentrator.

If I'd known THEN what I know NOW, I would have rigged up the 150 CF cylinder I have so I could use it when I needed to. There's nothing like tanked (or liquid) when your flame needs some AUTHORITY (or just needs to be pure oxy!) That being said, don't get discouraged, you can do almost everything with your setup, provided you can accept that certain colors aren't going to cooperate, and that you're going to have size limitations - particularly with solid work.

Good luck!

__________________
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Deb
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My Ebay
_______________________________
lynx and m15,m10, tanked O2, 1 bitchin sound system & wanting another GTT torch

Dale M. · #2 2010-08-11, 6:58pm

You are making this way to complicated........

A "Y" connector with VALVES.....

http://www.westernenterprises.com/en.../PDFS/wi17.pdf

And a couple of gender changers for hoses (applied to "Y" connector) its quite simple.....

http://www.westernenterprises.com/en.../PDFS/wi14.pdf

Dale

Kym · #3 2010-08-12, 2:11am

I love that expression 'when your flame needs some AUTHORITY'. Cue Cartman. LOL

Kym

Jaterwunky · #4 2010-08-12, 5:23pm

wELL i HAVE THAT ONE, THE GUY AT THE WELDING STORE INFORMED ME THE VALVE WENT THE OTHER WAY.... BLEW INTO IT AND YEP IT GOES FROM ONE TO TWO.... i'LL HAVE TO CHECK IF THAT ONE GOES FROM TWO TO ONE..... MOST OUT THERE ARE REVERSED FOR LINKING UP 2 TORCHES WITH ONE WAY FLUTTER VALVES.... HENCE MY PROBLEMMMM..
THANKS DALE I'LL SEE IF THAT WILL WORK.....
dOES ANYONE HAVE THAT ONE AND HAVE USED IT TO RIG TANK AND CONCENTRATOR TO TORCH...
PLEASE LET ME KNOW?????

Dale M. · #5 2010-08-13, 7:31am

Quote:

MOST OUT THERE ARE REVERSED FOR LINKING UP 2 TORCHES WITH ONE WAY FLUTTER VALVES.

Never heard of that.... Most torch style valves (yes on 'Y" connector) are needle point valves.... Never heard of a flutter valve!... The closest thing to a "flutter valve" would be a "check valve" or flashback arrestor and valved "Y" connector is not designed for that purpose....

A valve is a valve, should not be directional..... You should get flow through either or both OPEN valves no matter what direction you try to flow oxygen through....

You should be able to put single end of "Y" towards torch and the "Y" ends (with valves) towards oxygen supply (tank/oxycon) and just turn on valve from "supply" you desire and keep valve closed for supply you want off (protected from back pressure)...

A simple "hose coupler" for "B" style hose connections put in single end of "Y" connector changes it from a female connection (for regulator) to a male connector for a hose.... With valved "Y" connector and coupler and a couple of short hoses from "Y" to tank-oxycon you should be good to go.....

Other wise its to hardware store buy a really odd collection of parts and "t" connector and valved and try to cobble together all the mismatched parts, lots of time frustration and money for something you will always rather dislike....

Dale

cheng076 · #6 2010-08-13, 9:48am

Dale,
Sorry to disagree but needle valves, as are all 'globe' style valves, are in fact directional. It is reccommended that the side with continuous pressure (inlet) be on the underside of the disk/seat. Reason; so that when the valve is shut off there is no pressure on the valve stem side which may leak and one can shut the valve and repack the valve stem when needed without shutting down the entire system.

And yes these 'Y' connectors, with or without valves, do not typically have any check valves in them.... straight through.

PJH

MagpieGlass · #7 2010-08-13, 11:05am

I have a similar quandry. Just got an M15 oxycon. Hooked my Bobcat up to it. All is great for soft glass work but can't get that bigger flame I want (and not as oxidating) as I could on tanked 02 for the boro work.

I understand what is discussed above to switch from each supply system but is it feasible to "supplement" the oxycon without damaging it with back pressure??

What I was thinking is y connect both. Set Oxygen regulator at something lower than oxycon output (plus maybe a check value between oxycon and y connector). Use this to boost my oxygen for the bigger flame when necessary.

Thoughts on feasibility or am I looking for trouble??

Ultimately the oxycon is intended to run the inner fire on a Scorpion and the outer will run from the tank. But got a really good deal on the used oxycon before monies are set available for all my other "dream" upgrades.

Thanks,

Dale M. · #8 2010-08-13, 1:01pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by cheng076

Dale,
Sorry to disagree but needle valves, as are all 'globe' style valves, are in fact directional. It is reccommended that the side with continuous pressure (inlet) be on the underside of the disk/seat. Reason; so that when the valve is shut off there is no pressure on the valve stem side which may leak and one can shut the valve and repack the valve stem when needed without shutting down the entire system.

And yes these 'Y' connectors, with or without valves, do not typically have any check valves in them.... straight through.

PJH

I understand what you are saying about them being "globe valves", and I agree with you, but under these low pressure conditions and application it really does not matter to much on flow direction vs valve type.... If there were on high pressure side of oxygen supply or air or steam, or a "master" valve in system, I would agree that direction of flow vs valve design is critical....

Dale

Jaterwunky · #9 2010-08-13, 4:47pm

I just don't want to ruin my oxycons as i ahve 1600 invested in them.. That would suck.......

Dale M. · #10 2010-08-14, 10:26am

Only other solution other then valved Y connector is quick disconnects.... It is more positive and fool proof.....

You can cobble together some "ball" valves at "tee" fitting and lots of other brass fitting if you do not like idea of valved Y connector, but you still face same issues of operator error....

Dale

RyanTheNumberImp · #11 2010-08-14, 6:21pm

I have been supplementing my ogsi-15 for more than a year now and have only good things to say about it.

I combine a tank and concentrator with a plain Y. The ogsi runs at around 4lpm 12psi and I put the tank in at around 10psi. This way when I am running small flames the concentrator provides most of the oxygen, but as soon as I open up and the pressure falls the tank steps in.

Worked great and extended the tank life when I was still using a lynx. I had no problems whatsoever with backpressure or anything. Its just a pain to get the pressures adjusted properly.

MagpieGlass · #12 2010-08-15, 6:38am

Checked this out on their website. It is 1 inlet and 2 outlets ... aka going the wrong way!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dale M.

You are making this way to complicated........

A "Y" connector with VALVES.....

http://www.westernenterprises.com/en.../PDFS/wi17.pdf

And a couple of gender changers for hoses (applied to "Y" connector) its quite simple.....

http://www.westernenterprises.com/en.../PDFS/wi14.pdf

Dale

Dale M. · #13 2010-08-15, 7:04am

Quote:

Originally Posted by lamplighter

Checked this out on their website. It is 1 inlet and 2 outlets ... aka going the wrong way!!!

BUT if you read the previous entries, it is possible to use it reversed to what the picture indicated, two oxygen sources into one torch line.....All one has to do is get adapter fitting for "single" end connector so it will fit to a hose... The thing here is though "application" says one source to two torches, mechanical it has no restriction to flow application (though as PJH points out its counter to true design function)...

---------------------------

Other option is getting two of these... Called "Ball Valve"...

And one of these... Brass "TEE" fitting...

At least two of these... Brass "Nipple"...

About three of these... Called a "Reducing Bushing"...

And three of these and clamps... Known as "Barbed Fitting" and "Clamps"

Or three of these.... "Pipe Thread" to "B" type welding hose adapter...

And putting it all together with OIL FREE sealers...

Total parts bill will be about $50...

Dale

MagpieGlass · #14 2010-08-15, 11:09am

I DID read the whole post but got bogged down in the whole flutter valve, needle point valve discussion.

Point made. However, when I'm working with flame and things that can go BOOM, I prefer to use equipment that is designed or rated for the intended purpose. Just me CYAing my own butt. I also don't own the building my studio is in ... so I have additional concern.

I got the answer I needed on my oxycon question from the vendor who originally sold the device ... I'm off to my buds at the welding supply house to hook me up with the appropriate connectors.

Thanks for the education!!!

MagpieGlass · #15 2010-08-15, 11:51am

Dale,

Another question for you on the whole Y connector with shut off thing. You seemed to be well versed on this whole side of the ball of wax.

Since they refer to the one side as inlet and the other two as outlet. Is that more to do with the type of connector build in to the ends?? rather than intended flow of material through the connector??

I don't know one type of valve from another. I'm looking forward to getting my hands on one and seeing how it actually works!!! Thankfully, in my set up I can use just a plain old y connector ... so it is a non-issue but it could be more convenient to totally block off my tank.

thanks for you input.

Dale M. · #16 2010-08-15, 2:18pm

Its actually both........ As PJH describes there is a proper direction of flow through a specific valve design..... Also there is the type of connectors that are on ends of valves and Y piece. The single end of the "Y" connector is a female connection designed to attach to outlet connector on a regulator(male), the other two ends ( on valves) are male ends designed to accept (universal) "B" type welding hose (female ends) ....

There is also a bunch of fittings or adapters available to convert any gender of one type to another for "connections"..... Also consider all these hoses and adapters and fittings and regulators are adapted from the welding industry which probably have used these standards for last 75 to 100 years....

This site has the most extensive catalog of any fitting available to almost any hose/fitting/valve/regulator/tank connector...

http://www.westernenterprises.com/en...dcontents.html

Dale

caogomi · #17 2011-09-06, 1:03pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by RyanTheNumberImp

I have been supplementing my ogsi-15 for more than a year now and have only good things to say about it.

I combine a tank and concentrator with a plain Y. The ogsi runs at around 4lpm 12psi and I put the tank in at around 10psi. This way when I am running small flames the concentrator provides most of the oxygen, but as soon as I open up and the pressure falls the tank steps in.

Worked great and extended the tank life when I was still using a lynx. I had no problems whatsoever with backpressure or anything. Its just a pain to get the pressures adjusted properly.

I was thinking about this myself, I have a lynx and my new studio is about done being set up. I was thinking of getting a regalia or sequal from Kim, and I def need my torch to run at maximum potential (boro). Since I am not too sure the lynx will really open up on a single regalia, I was thinking to myself that perhaps I could use maybe 75% less oxygen from the tank if I had it hooked up in tandem with a decent oxycon. This would of course save me loads of money as when doing the math for what I will probably be paying for tank delivery, rental, and refills ends up making a oxycon pay for itself after only a year.

When you say it was a pain to get the pressures right, in what way was it difficult? Couldn't you use something to stop the potential of backpressure from the tank and set both of them to the same psi to ensure the only time the tank oxy is used is when the oxygen from the oxycon is not sufficient? This would be of course ideal in that one would use a fraction of the oxygen from the tank as they normally would, making a tank last a lot longer.

What sized tank were you using with your lynx and how long would it last you when hooked up with the oxy con? I don't want switches or disconnects, as I don't want to mess around with that in the middle of a piece.

Obviously not a wizard when it comes to understanding how the pressure might work, be it the same psi or slightly less, I still and thinking something that stops the backflow/back pressure from reaching the oxycon would limit the danger of damage. Can anyone help explain if my ideas are totally off, how one would use a normal y fitting with these two? Unless it is as simple as setting the psi at the pressures stated above? Does the tank psi just add to the oxycon when needed this way? For crude example: if the regalia is set to 9psi and the tank to 8 or 7psi, when the torch needs 10psi for the flame one is trying to get, does it just use 9 of 9psi from the oxycon and 1 of 7/8psi from the tank?

RyanTheNumberImp · #18 2011-09-06, 3:24pm

It has been several years since I last used that setup but I still
remember being very pleased with it.

When using an oxygen concentrator with a given rating (For example,
5lpm at 15 psi), if your torch is consuming less than 5 lpm the
concentrator has enough power to maintain the pressure. As you open
the torch further (for example, 6lpm) the pressure drops since the
concentrator can no longer keep up.

If you have a tank set at 14 psi, at less than 5 lpm the concentrator
holds the pressure at 15 psi and no oxygen from the tank is consumed.
As the torch opens further and the pressure falls the tank steps in to
fill the gap.

With a 6 lpm concentrator I was extending a tank from 3-5 hours to
7-12 hours. It also made the flame a lot cleaner for boro since the
concentrator wasn't working as hard and the tank is very pure. It is
also really nice since you don't get screwed when the tank runs out.

Most if not all oxygen generators have built in check valves so
back-flow or reverse pressure should not be an issue. When I said
that adjusting the pressure can be a pain I was speaking relative to
tank-only. I'd recommend aiming for 2-3 psi lower than the
concentrator so you need to aim a little bit better but its still a 30
second job at the most.

caogomi · #19 2011-09-06, 3:48pm

so how would you go about adjusting the lpm on the tank? my regulators only adjust psi and have another gauge showing how much is left in the tank (if i remember correctly). Do I have to find regulators that have an adjustment for lpm? If so I would need to get something running 8 lpm since I plant to have a 7-9psi 10lpm oxycon.

RyanTheNumberImp · #20 2011-09-06, 3:50pm

You don't need to adjust the lpm, it automatically outputs as much as you need because of how the pressures are set up.

caogomi · #21 2011-09-06, 4:06pm

ahhh ok, for some reason I read yer last post wrong lol "If you have a tank set at 14 psi, at less than 5 lpm the concentrator
holds the pressure at 15 psi and no oxygen from the tank is consumed.
As the torch opens further and the pressure falls the tank steps in to
fill the gap."

I moved the comma so I read it as "if you have a tank set at 14 psi at less than 5 lpm, the concentrator holds...." Sorry fer the confusion. So just to clarify (yes im a dense one ;p) It is simply a matter of hooking them up with a y adapter, and adjusting the tanks psi in a range of a few psi lower than the output of the oxycon, so that when the lpm your torch requires to run exceeds that which the oxycon can provide the tank picks up where it left off, and otherwise the oxygen from the tank is not being used due to the pressure from the oxycon being greater than the pressure from the tank?

" I'd recommend aiming for 2-3 psi lower than the
concentrator so you need to aim a little bit better but its still a 30
second job at the most."

This is the only part that still kinda has me confused, when you say 30 second job, do you mean to dial it in when you start for the days work, something you need to dial in before you go from a smaller flame to blasting it or is it a one time thing where once you have everything set, it for the most part is where it needs to be? And thank you very much for yer crazily fast responses! you have my vote ;D

RyanTheNumberImp · #22 2011-09-06, 4:14pm

You are correct, you just stick them together with a Y connector.

I remember reading somwhere that when opening a tank of oxygen the regulator should be off and you need to dial in the pressure each time. I don't know if that was true but the turnon procedure was:
Make sure regulator is set to 0 psi (unscrew knob)
Open cylinder
Set cylinder regulator to ~10 psi (my concentrator was 12psi)
turn on concentrator
Done!

Technically it isn't really any extra steps but on some regulators the dials can be a pain to read so making sure you are 10psi and not 12 or 13 can take a moment.

As far as the concentrator is concerned, this is operationally identical to running two concentrators in parallel, just don't accidentally set the regulator to 100 psi or anything.

LarryC · #23 2011-09-06, 5:13pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by RyanTheNumberImp

I remember reading somwhere that when opening a tank of oxygen the regulator should be off and you need to dial in the pressure each time.

You can damage the low pressure side diaphragm if you dont do this every time. Ask me how I know

caogomi · #24 2011-09-06, 6:07pm

good to know, in the 4 years i had been blowing glass (its been 4 years since then hehe) we never did this, I imagine we must have been lucky. What happens if the diaphragm is damaged? Leaking of precious oxy and all the possible dangers involved? Does the same go for propane??? I may have to read up on proper equipment operation after all...

RyanTheNumberImp · #25 2011-09-06, 6:22pm

From the instructions of a regulator:
1. MAKE SURE that the regulator pressure-adjusting screw is released. To do this, turn it to the left (counterclockwise) until it turns freely.
2. Open the cylinder valve SLOWLY. After the cylinder-pressure gauge hand stops moving, open the valve fully. Never stand in front of or behind
the regulator when opening the valve. Always stand to one side.

The safety poster that I learned this from depicted the adjustment screw stripping out and shooting from the regulator like a bullet but I'm not sure what the actual dangers are.

This is not necessary for the propane regulator as the pressure is much lower.

I believe the more expensive/dual stage regulators are exempt from this but I'm not sure so check the instructions.

LarryC · #26 2011-09-06, 9:00pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by caogomi

good to know, in the 4 years i had been blowing glass (its been 4 years since then hehe) we never did this, I imagine we must have been lucky. What happens if the diaphragm is damaged? Leaking of precious oxy and all the possible dangers involved? Does the same go for propane??? I may have to read up on proper equipment operation after all...

In my case, the regulator was damaged and we had to replace it. I had left the oxy reg set to 40 psi and when I opened the valve the pressure spiked and killed the regulator. This was at our public hotshop.