help with picking a torch for Boro and bead work

pattycake · #1 2013-04-03, 1:46pm

help, I see which torches are great for bead work, and the ultra large like the GTT scorpion, bethleham bravo, Nortel red max seem a lot of power for me, what would be a mid range torch? I am leaning toward mortel midrange or mega minor? thanks
oh, will get O2 from concentrator ( which ever size will be necessary)

Lisi · #2 2013-04-03, 2:05pm

IMHO, GTT is best for boro. A Bobcat would be a good choice, or the Lynx if your budget allows. Concentrator should be at least a 10 lpm.

pattycake · #3 2013-04-03, 3:25pm

I went to some google sights where they compair and they seem to like Lynx over cheetah, I was suprised cause lynx is less expensive so i would think less power??
what is IMHO?? thanks

istandalone24/7 · #4 2013-04-04, 2:38am

gtt's are nice, but overhyped.
the midrange is a great torch...i have one (actually i upgraded it to a redmax, but just put the midrange burner back on the torch the redmax is an oxy hog with too much radiant heat in my hands) and love it. it's pretty oxy efficient and you can get a pinpoint flame up to a big bushy flame. i've made marbles up to 2" (took forever though) on the midrange.

Lisi · #5 2013-04-04, 2:55am

Quote:

Originally Posted by pattycake

I went to some google sights where they compair and they seem to like Lynx over cheetah, I was suprised cause lynx is less expensive so i would think less power??
what is IMHO?? thanks

IMHO is "in my honest opinion".

The flame of the Cheetah is wider and hotter, but you would need more oxygen than a Bobcat or Lynx would use. To give you an idea on oxygen needs, the Bobcat can run on a 5 lpm concentrator, but you would melt boro very slowly. It would do much better with two 5 lpm concentrators, or a 10 lpm. The Lynx uses even more, so at least a 10 lpm.

The Midrange and Redmax use even more oxygen, so I don't know what machines or how many would would power them up to do boro. I think your best bet is to start out with a Bobcat and two 5 lpm concentrators, or spend the extra and get the more powerful oxygen machine. You can always move up to one of the hotter torches in the future. GTT also makes a Cricket and it's smaller than the Bobcat and will run very well on one 5 lpm machine. But I've used one, and compared to my Bobcat as far as melting boro goes, I was not too impressed with it. I prefer my Bobcat for boro.

My oxygen machine is very expensive and most lampworkers don't have the $$$ in their budget. It cost me $2600 and that was eleven years ago. Mine is an Airsep AS-12A generator, and it can run two Bobcats, a Lynx very well, and a Cheetah too, with a 5 lpm in tandem for a little more "ooopmh". But the machines they have on the market these days are a lot less expensive and come with good warranties and good customer service.

I recommend Pyronamix, and right now they have a small supply of Bobcats on hand. http://www.pyronamix.com/Pyronamix/Welcome.html

OOPS! I take back what I wrote earlier! The Bobcat has been re-designed and now runs more efficiently on just one 5 lpm. I love the purple body, so now I have a new case of torch envy. lol! I found that info under "Torches" on this website.

istandalone24/7 · #6 2013-04-04, 3:02am

a midrange will run well on two 8lpm/15psi machines...m15's or ex15's.

bepnewt · #7 2013-04-04, 7:41am

I now have a Bravo and run the centerfire on an M20 concentrator and it works just fine melting boro for small items. I have the outerfire hooked up to a K-tank, but won't use it much, I don't think. It sure is nice having it there, though, for when I need it.

Roy ( Dragonharper here on the forums ) has a Bravo and does real glass work, as opposed to myself who is a newbie. I think he even stated that he mainly uses the centerfire.

It all depends on your budget and goals. If you just want to make beads and use soft glass you don't need a $700+ torch. If you want to make 2" marbles out of Boro, you'll be looking at a much different subset of torches.

There's a ton of information on these forums in threads where other people have asked what torch they should get. I'd search these forums using words like "better", "Bravo", "Scorpion", "Lynx", "Midrange", "Nortel", etc. and you should find a lot of the threads about the mid-tier torches you want to know about.

Also, search YouTube to see the different flames the torches put out to get an idea of what their capabilities are.

-BEP

Dragonharper · #8 2013-04-04, 10:38am

Thanks Brian, about the real glass work, I still consider myself a noob. Personally I would consider the Bravo a midrange torch as it makes out at 26mm rod and 38mm tubing. The Alpha maxes out at 16mm rod and 19mm tubing(you can go bigger than the max but it will take a lot longer). I've found that the Bravo works well on marbles up 10 1.25" for boro and 1.75 for soda lime glass. You can get a little bigger if you are good at heat control. The biggest advantage is having that extra bit of heat when you need it, it's really handy to have that extra oomph when a piece is being stubborn. A foot pedal is not necessary, but extremely handy.

pattycake · #9 2013-04-04, 1:47pm

thanks will look ( ask on Boro thread)
I am thinking if a Lynx is strong enough for boro don't really want to get the scorpion, think it might be too much for me, yes I have checked on you tube an google sights, thanks again
oh so many choices

LarryC · #10 2013-04-05, 9:46am

I would suggest you NOT buy any of the GTT triple mix designs, like the Lynx, if you are planning to use it with a small concentrator. In my experience they really only are worth the premium if fed a sufficient amount of high purity oxygen from a tank or large industrial generator with a holding tank. I have a Mirage and have run the center off of multiple concentrators but now use tanked only.

Mr.Smeeth · #11 2013-04-05, 10:23am

Bethlehem bravo ftw it can do anything for 800 bucks works awesome off my onycons

artsyuno · #12 2013-04-05, 12:17pm

The thing about a 2-stage (Bravo, Scorpion, Phantom, Hellcat, etc.) is that it's not too much torch if you think you'll want an outerfire down the road, because you can just run the inner fire for now. The Bravo centerfire is the Alpha, the Scorpion's is the Cricket, the Phantom's is the Lynx and the Hellcat's is the Mini cc. If you're interested in boro work, I'd suggest seriously considering a torch with an outfire if budget and oxy allows, because you're less likely to outgrow it in a hurry.

Regarding the question of whether or not to go with a GTT, IMHO the primary benefit of the GTT is the extra oxy valve on the triple mix torch. If you're not going to get a triple mix torch, I'm not convinced the GTTs are any better than any others. Flame characteristics differ and you may find that one of the GTTs has the flame you want or you may find that a different torch would work better with your work style. Same with oxygen or gas needs - if you want to run on natural gas, the Bravo may be a good option (requires less gas pressure), if you want to run on a limited amount of oxygen, a Scorpion may be a good choice.

Regarding Lynx and Cheetah, from what I've read, soft glass users generally seem to prefer the Lynx, but some boro users love the Cheetah. Also, I wouldn't consider the Scorpion an ultra-large torch. I think it's one of the smaller/less hot torches of those with outer fires (although probably the one that can run well on the least amount of oxygen) and if you're going to work with boro, you may very well end up wanting an outer fire.

Rough_necked · #13 2013-04-05, 2:24pm

I have a cricket and am happy with it for smaller boro like implosions up to about an inch. It does get slow towards the end though. I run it on 2 5 lpm concentrators. I would love a bigger torch like a Scorpion for melting in and making marias. But I am torn between it and a lynx both on price and flame width.

AmorphousDesigns · #14 2013-04-05, 5:20pm

I used the Lynx with an M10 oxygen concentrator for soft and boro. Eventually I got another M10 because I thought I needed more oxy, but probably I was just not too skilled.

Some people complain that the Lynx isn't great for soft glass as it can really blast a lot of heat to a small area creating issues controlling the overall heat base and yes, I have experienced this. The trick is setting up the main valves to give you a decent, slightly "bushy" flame then using the 2nd oxy valve to get a narrow, penetrating flame only as needed. Also, work a bit farther out in the flame and letting the heat soak in a bit as needed.

The Lynx or Phantom (Lynx inner fire ports with another outer ring of ports) is great for boro, you can get a needle sharp flame for details and a bigger, yet still penetrating flame for building up heat base and you can get a really oxygen rich flame very easily, which is nice for lots of boro colors.

With the Phantom you could run the inner ring off concentrators and the outer off tanked oxy which I like for economy (tanked oxy can be expensive).

Good luck with your selection, no matter what you get you will be able to melt glass, learn and have fun!

castaway · #15 2013-04-06, 4:43pm

perhaps you should decide just what oxy source you will use and choose a torch to suit, there are lots of torches now being made to run on concentrators and low gas pressures which makes operation quite cheap I might suggest getting the largest torch you can afford and afford to run as you can make small stuff on a big torch but it's hard to make big stuff on a small torch. Larry don't discount concentrators, I have run a phantom on two OG20s for years and it runs fine.
B

LarryC · #16 2013-04-06, 5:04pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by castaway

perhaps you should decide just what oxy source you will use and choose a torch to suit, there are lots of torches now being made to run on concentrators and low gas pressures which makes operation quite cheap I might suggest getting the largest torch you can afford and afford to run as you can make small stuff on a big torch but it's hard to make big stuff on a small torch. Larry don't discount concentrators, I have run a phantom on two OG20s for years and it runs fine.
B

I consider the OG20s to be industrial Oxygen generators and they are a completely different beast then the re purposed medical concentrators that are common here. I have considerable run time on my Mirage center with tanked and an M20 concentrator and it is a completely different torch.

Lisi · #17 2013-04-07, 8:48pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by LarryC

I consider the OG20s to be industrial Oxygen generators and they are a completely different beast then the re purposed medical concentrators that are common here. I have considerable run time on my Mirage center with tanked and an M20 concentrator and it is a completely different torch.

I don't think anyone around here has one like mine, an Airsep industrial generator. Almost as much juice as the M20. Mine is the high pressure model and it can run as high as 18psi. But I keep it around 15.

LarryC · #18 2013-04-08, 10:01am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lisi

I don't think anyone around here has one like mine, an Airsep industrial generator. Almost as much juice as the M20. Mine is the high pressure model and it can run as high as 18psi. But I keep it around 15.

In my opinion it Just doesnt make sense to recommend a GTT triple mix for someone with a small medical concentrator. You need a high pressure and volume source of Oxy, like tanked, to take advantage of the torches capabilities. I am a die hard GTT fan. Love my Mirage.

yeepers · #19 2013-04-08, 10:37am

Quote:

Originally Posted by pattycake

help, I see which torches are great for bead work, and the ultra large like the GTT scorpion, bethleham bravo, Nortel red max seem a lot of power for me, what would be a mid range torch? I am leaning toward mortel midrange or mega minor? thanks
oh, will get O2 from concentrator ( which ever size will be necessary)

If you're not planning to work really large pieces or boro you could easily start with a ton of options!

Cricket
Bobcat (?)
Minor
Mega Minor
Mini C

I ran all of those except for the Bobcat on a 5LPM oxycon "back in the day"

Cheers,

-Yee

Baywinger · #20 2013-04-16, 5:28pm

I love my cheetah for both soft and boro beads but it needs a lot of oxy I can run it on our 3 m20's into an 11 gal holding tank as long as my boro work stays small to med so for most beads yes but if I want to make marbles and blown work I have to use my tanks.
I tried the Bravo at open torch working boro and I did not care for it, if found the center fire too small and the outer fire did not seem to work the boro as well as my cheetah and that was on tanks on a concentrator it would have less available heat. I started on a mega minor and it was a nice torch but I found I was limited in size with boro and it did not strike colors as well as my cheetah( triple mix) or my wife's new scorpion(standard mix. my wife tried the bravo as well and was intimidated by the outer fire, she found the scorpion to be the perfect size as the outer fire is 8 ports instead of the Bravos 12 ports. that being said many folks love their bravos and they are one of the new generation torches like the scorpion and cricket made to work off of oxycons. I was looking to upgrade from my cheetah and so the bravo did not meet what I was looking for had that been around when I moved from my mega minor to my cheetah I would have looked harder at it, though having gotten used to triple mix I would not want anything else.