Oxy con dilemma

quincyandco · #1 2009-11-22, 1:54pm

So, I've been trying to help Clan Tabby sort out her problem with her studio...maybe some one can help here...new ex15 oxy con
1. No neutral flame on her torch or mine at her house
2. Here they work great
3. She has propane, I have NG
4. Flame here is 3X bigger than at her house using her oxy con
5. Sent the oxy con to Paul... works great for him too
She checked the hoses, oxy con, torch
What could be wrong???
Original post by clan tabby...oxycon problems...any ideas? here in tips...

squid · #2 2009-11-22, 1:58pm

Who is Paul and what do you mean "works great for him too?" The oxycon? who else does it work great for?

quincyandco · #3 2009-11-22, 2:13pm

Oops, my brain goes faster than my fingers....Paul is from Extreme Oxygen and she sent her oxycon back to him thinking that it was the reason she couldn't get any flame. He checked the oxycon out and said it worked just fine.

squid · #4 2009-11-22, 2:13pm

are there any flashback arrestors on her hoses?

quincyandco · #5 2009-11-22, 2:21pm

There were, she took them off to see if that affected the pressure...didn't change things much

squid · #6 2009-11-22, 2:26pm

does she have one way flow valves on her hoses to the oxycon?

quincyandco · #7 2009-11-22, 2:32pm

Yes, they don't affect the flame either, she took it off to be sure it wasn't the problem

Feldt's Glass · #8 2009-11-22, 2:41pm

Are you sure the pressure on her propane is ok? If the concentrator works for you and another person I would say check the rest of the system. If it's not the propane then check the hoses and holding tank if you have one. There is probably a leak somewhere.

squid · #9 2009-11-22, 2:43pm

I asked in the other thread - is her flame bushy and yellow or small and blue?

kbinkster · #10 2009-11-22, 2:55pm

Check the pressure setting on the regulator and make sure it is between 5 and 10 psi. Check the lines for obstructions and leaks. Make sure the propane valve is turned all the way on.

clan tabby · #11 2009-11-22, 6:33pm

Ok, I'm home now. I sent a pm to Dale M., & he thinks it might have to do with the electrical system. After trying everything that people recommended from the thread I started a few weeks ago, I kinda started thinking "electrical", but then another friend came out with a voltage meter & it showed 120 volts.

Still, I knew I was missing something, forgetting something I'd read in other threads that I hadn't paid a lot of attention to because, really, I know nothing about electric systems. Dale says that sometimes the amperage isn't sufficient, even tho the voltage might indicate that things are fine. That's it - amperage! The thing I'd forgotten. He thinks the poor oxycon might be "starving for power" if there's not enough current.

So, tomorrow I'll try to find someone to measure amperage output. If it's low, then I might be SOL since I'm certain the owner isn't going to rewire the house just so I can run an oxycon. With a bit of luck, it might be a bad connection, something repairable, so wish me luck!

Nancie

squid · #12 2009-11-22, 6:39pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by clan tabby

Ok, I'm home now. I sent a pm to Dale M., & he thinks it might have to do with the electrical system. After trying everything that people recommended from the thread I started a few weeks ago, I kinda started thinking "electrical", but then another friend came out with a voltage meter & it showed 120 volts.

Still, I knew I was missing something, forgetting something I'd read in other threads that I hadn't paid a lot of attention to because, really, I know nothing about electric systems. Dale says that sometimes the amperage isn't sufficient, even tho the voltage might indicate that things are fine. That's it - amperage! The thing I'd forgotten. He thinks the poor oxycon might be "starving for power" if there's not enough current.

So, tomorrow I'll try to find someone to measure amperage output. If it's low, then I might be SOL since I'm certain the owner isn't going to rewire the house just so I can run an oxycon. With a bit of luck, it might be a bad connection, something repairable, so wish me luck!

Nancie

You might be able to plug into a different outlet that is on a diff circuit - if you use an extension cord to get to it, make sure it is a heavy duty cord.

clan tabby · #13 2009-11-22, 7:13pm

The kiln, which works great, is on a different outlet, but when I tried the oxycon on that outlet it didn't help at all. I might try to hook it into the TV outlet & see if that helps. Thanks for the suggestion!

getdul981 · #14 2009-11-23, 6:02am

I think someone mentioned this on the other thread, but is it possible the knob on the propane tank is loose and not opening all the way? Try to tighten the screw in the center of the knob and then open the valve. If that doesn't help, take the tank to the re-fill station and have them check the valve.

Greg

clan tabby · #15 2009-11-23, 9:47am

Greg, it's a brand new propane tank, & the propane works great. In fact, the only way I've been able to melt glass at all is to bump the propane a bit, & then it's hot enough to make beads - slowly. Of course, then it's not a neutral flame so I can't use silver glass in any way, shape or form. Until I figured out something was screwy, I just thought I had a black thumb when it came to silver glass. Now at least I don't feel so silver impaired. But I still can't use any (wah).

kbinkster · #16 2009-11-23, 10:15am

Usually, when electricity is an issue, the machine won't run at all, or will start up and then shut itself off.

If the oxycon checked out with Paul and it worked fine at another location, then that can be checked off the list.

If the torch is clean and free of obstructions and works great at another studio, then that can be checked off the list.

How long is the oxygen line? If it is too long, it might be that there's not enough pressure to push the oxygen along to where it needs to go.

Get a 4-6 foot length of 1/4" ID vinyl tubing and use that for your oxygen line and see if there's a difference.

Hayley · #17 2009-11-23, 10:24am

Nancie - did you try it with both of your torches? When I got my M-15, I had the exact issue with one of my torches. It worked find with a DeVilbiss but would have 1/2 its flame with a M-15.

kebira · #18 2009-11-23, 10:37am

What type regulator are you using with your propane tank? As a past user of an oxy-con (EX-15) I found that changing flame chemistry involved the propane far more often than the oxygen, the oxygen being the limitting factor.
I would A.)If using a pre-set grill regulator, think about a proper regulator for your gas.
You can have far more control on your flame types.

B.)If you are using a proper regulator, open your tank valve and set the regulator pressure to 5 lbs.Do not open the torch valve and watch that the pressure at the regulator does not climb on it's own. If it does, this would be a good reason you cannot achieve a neutral flame. It also means a piece of rust or dirt has gotten under your diaphram.No,no,the one in your regulator! Believe it or not , there are not many parts inside the regulator, and it is possible to unscrew the housing, remove the pieces in order on a bench, and clean the offending grit off of the rubber face. No need for any cleaning solutions or what-not.make sure all parts are removed and blow out the empty body,re=assemble and carefully check for both leaks and being able to raise and lower the pressure.I'm thinking your problem lies at the gas delivery system i.e. the tank & regulator.
Kevin

Also, what torch are you using?

kebira · #19 2009-11-23, 10:44am

Also, its fair to note that I went to a resevoir tank to build up a supply of oxygen for my torch (Lynx) to draw on. This got away from starvation issues with available oxygen as well as the deep breaths of the machine. Trey Cornettes tutorial was easy to understand and doable in an hr or two.Well worth the time.

clan tabby · #20 2009-11-23, 11:09am

Kimberly, I cut down the hose when that was recommended in the original thread & it didn't help. Also, at Quincy's, with my same hose (<10') & her hose to the torch (longer than my 3' at home), the oxycon worked great.

Hayley, neither the Cricket or the Mini cc work well at my place, altho I can get the Cricket to make beads with a little extra propane. I took my Cricket, along with the oxycon, to Quincy's yesterday & was able to see for the 1st time what my amazing little Cricket is capable of with sufficient O2. Same with the Mini, tho I know how they work since that's what I use at open studio. (Now do you all begin to understand why I've been going so crazy?)

Kevin - the regulator is a Smith, from Arrow Springs, new. The pressure reading doesn't change. Hmmm - a reservoir tank - I'd forgotten that option. Might be easier than having to rewire the house or switching to tanked O2. Alto I doubt it would take me an hour or two; more likely a day or two (not exactly mechanically inclined here). Also, I wonder if a reservoir would fill if the oxycon isn't putting out like it ought to?

Hayley · #21 2009-11-23, 11:22am

Is it possible to borrow another torch and attach to your set up and see?

This is what happened to me. I had a Bobcat with a DeVilbiss. I got a M15 and the Bobcat produced half the flame on the M15 but my new Barracuda's inner fire was fine. Quincy brought down another Bobcat from her studio and hers worked fine. So we swapped Bobcats. Mine works fine at her studio.

Confusing, I know. I even discussed this with Jack from Unlimited Oxygen and he had not idea why that one torch just didn't perform with the M15.

If you were going to have Quincy bring a torch to your studio, just make sure it wasn't my old Bobcat!

clan tabby · #22 2009-11-23, 11:51am

Heh - that would've been a hoot! No, I didn't try a bobcat, but Quincy did loan me the Mini cc that I use at open studio, & it was even hooked up to her ancient DeVilbliss one day, so I know it works fine with an oxycon. Didn't work at my place. And the Mini I bought, thinking this problem would be resolved when I sent the machine back to Paul at Extreme Oxygen, & because it was a great deal (the Mini) doesn't work either. That's when I realized that the Cricket is really pretty awesome, since I've been able to make beads with it, even when it gets ~1/2 the O2 it ought to. But even with the Cricket I have to bump the propane to have enough heat to work the glass.

So, I've tried 3 different torches at my place with the same results: not enough O2.

Hayley · #23 2009-11-23, 12:48pm

My only other suggestion is to see who in your neighborhood has an EX15 (or even a M15 since it's the same) and hook that up to your set up. If you were closer, I could bring one of my M15 by. Perhaps email Sharon Peters to send our a request to the SGB NorCal members?

clan tabby · #24 2009-11-23, 2:30pm

Well, here's the latest on the dealio - the PG&E guy was just here (kudos for quick response!), & he, like my friend the other day, found 120 volts entering the house & in the outlets. He wasn't too familiar with amperage stuff, but he did check & found that there was only ~ .6 amps in the cord to the oxycon. I had called Paul at Extreme Oxygen to ask him how much they draw, & it's 4.8. A-hem. Sound like a problem? Then he checked at the fuse box & it showed something like a total draw of 1 amp for the entire house, even tho the oxycon was still running, & my husband had the TV on.

Now, I will be the 1st to admit that I don't really know what this means, how voltage translates into amps & such. Dale M. was the person who mentioned the possibility of low amperage, & that seems to be the/a culprit. Guess I'll have to ask the landlord if he can figure out something. He sometimes knows stuff, & sometimes not. I'll probably end up having to call in an electrician. Sheesh. Tanked O2 is actually starting to sound appealing, & I'm skeered of the stuff.

Well, I've got to get ready to go to a client's. Sheesh. I don't feel like doing anything other than crawling into a cave. Why did we have to move to a house with fricken electrical problems? And ONLY for the one little minor thing of lampworking?? (whine snivel)

squid · #25 2009-11-23, 2:51pm

Do you have a kiln plugged in? That draws more amperage than an oxycon.

getdul981 · #26 2009-11-23, 2:52pm

I know this is way out in left field and probably not worth mentioning, but is it possible you have the hoses connected to the wrong barbs on the torch. I don't know what the result would be, but it's worth double checking.

Greg

clan tabby · #27 2009-11-23, 3:12pm

Greg, 3 different torches, 2 different owners, couldn't possible all be connected wrong, but thanks for trying to think of something!

Squid - I asked Dale about that & he answered, "As for the kiln, it is not VOLTAGE dependent, it only really needs current (amperage) to get hot so if voltage drops it's not usually a problem .... whereas a voltage drop may be strangling the oxycon so it cannot run properly... At this point I would have to digress into Ohm's Law (laws of electrical function) & I don't think we want to go there ... but if you're really bored it's on the internet ..."

Again, none of this makes sense to me. I would think, too, that the kiln would draw more current than an oxycon, so I just don't know. It's so confusing & frustrating & that's why I'm ready to crawl into a cave. Hibernation time anyway, i'n'it?