Newbie Quest - What would you do?

SerendipityArtGlass · #1 2011-02-15, 12:18pm

I am soooo new to the flame that I don't even have a torch yet. I was wondering the school of thought concerning whether I should start with a low end torch or even two separate torches for soft and hard glass and upgrade with skill later on or purchase an upper end torch and learn from the beginning how to use it. I am interested mostly on boro sculpture and large marbles/paperweights with implosions. Bead making both in soda lime and boro interest me and feel I could quite possibly become addicted. I have looked at the Red Max, Scorpion and the National 6 and 8.

Any help, hints or experiences would be greatly appreciated.

Also, oxycon v bottle oxy.

I have a 12x12 shop with cement floor to be dedicated to glass. Has electric and lighting, no windows but will have vents, A/C and heat.

Dale M. · #2 2011-02-15, 12:30pm

I would start very simple and see where it goes from there.... Maybe just soda lime glass (soft) and start with something as simple as a Hothead and work some beads and pendants ....

To start up with even a national 8M with SM7 tip and regulator (fuel) and what not its going to be $300-$400 just for torch, hoses and regulator (+ oxycon) ..... If you have lots of money to spend its ok, but if you decide a year from now "glass" is not for you its a terrific investment to have just sitting there mocking you...

It's ok to have dreams of sculpture and large paperweights and marbles but glass has a mind of its own, and until you learn to control it, there is going to be lots of frustration..... I guess I'm saying, learn to crawl before you try to walk....

Do not be discourages and loose sight of your dreams but lean the basics first.... Have you even had any torch time?...

Dale

SerendipityArtGlass · #3 2011-02-15, 1:00pm

Thank you for your input. I have some $$ to invest and have loads of time. I became disabled in early 2009 and am looking for something that 1) I can do and 2) will occupy my time so that I don't go stark raving mad.

I have investigated "kits" and was told by a customer service rep at one glass supplier that I should buy the best torch I could afford because it is difficult to change torches after becoming used to one and I don't want to limit myself to soft glass because my interests lie in boro mostly. Anyway, since the recommendation was from a salesperson, I felt it prudent to check with other glass crafters and artisians for more input on the question.

And no torch time yet.

echeveria · #4 2011-02-15, 1:10pm

Plenty of people upgrade from an entry level torch. There is a learning curve, but it is not huge or anything.

If I were starting, I would get a cricket and an oxycon. You can do boro on that, albeit a bit more slowly than on some rocket torch. I would play with some glass and develop skills and interest. You also need a kiln.

Second, but more expensive choice, Scorpion with a bigger oxycon.

Both of those torches hold their value well and can be sold if you decide you want the great big daddy torch. If I were going to invest over $1,000 in a torch, I would for sure want to try it out before I bought it, so I would look for people or places willing to let me work on the one I am considering before I bought it.

Tanks are heavy and need to be refilled, maybe quite often, depending on your usage. But tanked gives you the most firepower.

CherieRanfranz · #5 2011-02-15, 1:18pm

Hello,

I'll add my two cents since I'm fairly new to lampworking.

First of all, if at all possible - take a class! When I first tried lampworking (ten years ago) I ordered one of those kits, tried it once and never touched it again because I was so frustrated!

A few years ago I got interested again and was lucky to be able to take a day-long class from a wonderful instructor (thanks Donna Millard!!) who got me pointed in the right direction. It was very helpful for me to actually melt the glass and learn the basics from a talented, experienced instructor. I learned things from her that stick in my head and help me to focus and control the glass every day that I'm at the torch.

This time around I started and am still working with a minor and oxycon and a Chilipepper kiln. An instructor can also help with questions about suppliers, annealing, ventilation and other safety tips.

Hope this helps! Good luck with your endeavor!!

Cherie

SerendipityArtGlass · #6 2011-02-15, 1:38pm

Sundance is offering a class Mar 5 and I hope to take it. I am in Oregon and the trip there is about 8 hours for me....It's just I can't always be sure that I'll be well enough on certain days to participate for a 2 day class, especially after travel.

I have a vast library and DVD's on the way. I really took to heart Hoyt's recommendation to sit down and just melt globs to see how glass reacts and make friends with gravity. Currently reading Tettinger's Passing the Flame and twirling mandrel stand-ins....dental picks, pencils, smooth pens.

Absorbing all on this website like a sponge.

Dale M. · #7 2011-02-15, 3:02pm

Quote:

told by a customer service rep at one glass supplier that I should buy the best torch I could afford because it is difficult to change torches after becoming used to one

That is sort a "line" sales person is putting on you.... Some people start with a Hothead and work for years on one and are quite content some people change torches ever few years as their need evolve, some just buy the latest and biggest because they "got to have it"..... It's just going along the learning curve with a new torch to find how how it works for you.. Sort of like when you buy a new car, learning where all the switches and knobs are and how it "drives".....

Up around the Portland area there are many fine glass studios and many talented people you may want to look here:

http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=38

And search for anyone near you that may be willing to share the very basics with you....

Also there is a glass school in Eugene...

http://www.artglassanswers.com/forum...8549686e48d517

Not may posting here (above link) now but there is usually a list of up coming events on above site...

There is no need to travel to Calif if there is something closer unless you really want to ....

I really suggest you make contact with some lamp-workers and studios and dabble in a bit before committing and at least you will have some perspective on what you want....

Dale

CherieRanfranz · #8 2011-02-15, 3:02pm

Yes, melting glass just to see how it reacts is super helpful! I read Passing the Flame before I had everything set up - made me really anxious to get started. I think DVDs, books and this site will help a lot! I learned so much here on LE about setting my torch up and tips about which kiln to buy - so glad there are so many people willing to share their knowledge!

Hopefully you'll be able to take the class - I think that will really help you a lot!! Good luck! Keep us posted on your progress!

Cherie

cheng076 · #9 2011-02-15, 11:21pm

Oregon has a vast number of lampworkers and other glass artists primarily in the Eugene and Portland areas. Get in contact with the ISGB group called ORBS, Oregon Regional Bead Society, or the Portland bead group, don't recall their name, and they will have names and contacts for all your needs, classes, supplies, etc.
Portland has several glass manufacturers and they will also have info on classes and clubs and lessons, etc.
PJH

SerendipityArtGlass · #10 2011-02-16, 9:38pm

Thank you all for the input. Last night I was leaning toward the Mini CC but then I run across a lightly used Major/Minor (both surface mix for $200 and another Major/Minor with Premix and all hoses gauges and arrestors for $250.00. I really liked the idea of being able to run the Mini CC on an oxycon but the Major/Minor with attachments seems like such a deal. I'm really worried about not having enough torch to work in hard glass as that is where my interest lies. I just really don't see myself making too many beads.......I want to do paperweights, marbles and sculpture. Just thinking about it gives me goosebumps lol. Again, thank you all for the input and thank LE for being here, I was up until the wee hours devouring info.

SerendipityArtGlass · #11 2011-02-16, 9:51pm

Whoops, the deal was for a mega Monor with attachments.

Alaska · #12 2011-02-16, 11:34pm

Find out the amount of oxygen the torch takes. The see what it costs to rent/own and fill a tank in your area. Some torches will blow through a K tank in 8 hours. Check the threads on this site and others and see what the usage is and then calculate from there.

And if you are going to make marbles and other large glass objects a kiln is a must. The torch is just one part of the entire equation.

Are you going to work in boro or soft glass? Have you taken a hands on class? Do you have the recommended books for starters? Do you want to spend perhaps 5K or more for all of the items that are needed? Do you want a 1K torch or one that goes for 6K. Do you have a feel for how glass reacts to different flames? Is there a market in your area for your products? Do you have a glass supplier picked out. Plus many more possible questions.

Purchase a Cricket ($160), a kiln and concentrator plus some glass would be a great place to start. Then upgrade to a Scorpion ($700) after a year or two later. And then to LOX and a huge torch.

Glassworking is a slow learning process. It is not something that can be acquired overnight.

Check on LE as there are a number of threads that will answer a number of your questions.

It is exciting to start something new. However this hobby is expensive and time consuming. Just check out NS for their pricing on a pound of colored boro as one example.

lorisue · #13 2011-02-17, 10:26am

I agree with those that say "take a class first". I came across this Art by seeing a demo last summer at an Art Festival. I was immediately smitten so I found a class to take through the local college art program. I am now making beads at home in my own setup but I don't believe the outcome would have been the same if I had not had the initial direction to get me started. there is so much to learn.

also - don't forget about eye safety. I have both regular safety glasses and didymium glasses. Since I learned using the safety classes I have a harder time using the didymium glasses to do detail work. getting my dots in a straight line is a challenge!!

good luck and welcome to the art!!

SerendipityArtGlass · #14 2011-02-17, 1:32pm

As my health doesn't allow me too much travel, I have decided to begin this hobby using DVD's and printed matter. Classes are pretty much out at this time, but maybe in the future. Right now I have time and patience to try something new and the determination to keep trying even if I end up butting my head against the wall. I've already read Elizabeth Mears-Flameworking, Hoyt's Glassblowing and Tettinger's Passing the Flame. Just arrived are my DVD's: Essential Lampworking 1 and 2; Sculptural Glassworking 1 through 5 by Crystal Myths, Essential Marbles and Essential Boro Beadmaking. Planning on purchasing a Cricket and a 5 lpm Oxy-Con. Have kiln. ........Just about ready to begin.

emkay · #15 2011-02-17, 1:51pm

There are so many things that you learn by actually experiencing things. I would not even for a second consider buying things without testing out a hobby first. Would you go and buy scuba gear and jump into the ocean after reading a bunch of books and watching movies about it? Not only is it dangerous, but you wouldn't really get a good fit on your gear.

It is the same with torches and kilns - you have to test them to see what you like. I started out in boro, thinking 104 was silly and too delicate. I now work 95% in 104 - it moves more gracefully for me. I really really recommend finding someone local to watch and ask questions to - it would be ideal if you could ask to test their torch. I have used three kinds of torches, one being a major/minor, and I have the worst time working 104 on it. I would never buy a major/minor. I would never have known this had I not tried to use one.

I took a silversmithing class after admiring jewelry and metalwork for ages. I read up on it, and I bought a bunch of silver. I was so excited, and I knew that I was going to love it. When I got to the class, I was miserable. I didn't have that particular brand of patience, and I couldn't keep doing it. After a short while, I stopped smithing completely. If I had bought the tools and equipment, I would be broke and super unhappy!

Make sure that you can work glass safely. If you end up getting your setup without real torch or glassworker interaction, MAKE SURE you check out the safety forum - the vents and fans and placement of oxygen and propane are all so important. Also, if your health prevents you from leaving the house, make sure your doctor says working glass is ok. There are a lot of safety risks involved, so make sure keeping yourself safe is your absolute priority

I have been flameworking glass for 4 years. I still don't have my own setup - I'd like to get one in the future, but I know that it is important for me to test out more torches than I have in order to find the perfect fit for me.

SerendipityArtGlass · #16 2011-02-17, 9:07pm

Thank you Alaska. I think the Cricket makes the most sense with the OxyCon and steal hubby's tanks for back up bottled O2 (LOL). Kiln is handled. A small portable 9x9. Seems like the Cricket has a good reputation and is a torch that has some power without the near $1000 price tag.

Re SAFETY. My other half is a retired jet propulsion engineer. He has spent his entire working career igniting fuels much more powerful than propane. I feel very fortunate to have his experience and assistance in setting up my work area. Shopping for glasses next....................

Alaska · #17 2011-02-17, 9:57pm

The cricket is a nice little GTT torch. It is easy on fuel and oxygen and your checking account. And a back up tank just in case if a wonderful idea. Have one in the garage for welding, but a fill is too costly for any long term use.

One concentrator will give you enough power to do small boro beads up to about 24 mm OD and perhaps some larger ones. When funds permit, get a 2nd concentrator at the same PSI as the first one and the Cricket will even do better.

If you need a little more fire power get the Scoprion as its center fire is the Cricket. Makes for an easy to manage transition. Then add a third concentrator if on propane.

Good luck with the new hobby and be sure to post some of your creations.