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  #31  
Old 2013-03-22, 4:58pm
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Jack what about doing like GTT does and get 1/2 payment down and the other 1/2 when the product ships. Give them a week to pay then move to the next person. Then go back and give the first person another week and move on to the next. People would not feel like they had so much money tied up and feel like they are being con'ed
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  #32  
Old 2013-03-22, 4:59pm
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"I have no choice but to pull the order from someone else who doesnt mind waiting."
Not telling someone upfront that their purchase is going to be used to fund the completion of someone else's unit is definitely cause for concern if not outright fraud/ponzi.

From your website, "SOME ORDERS CAN TAKE 8 TO 12 WEEKS. BE SURE YOU CAN WAIT, BEFORE YOU ORDER. WE WILL NOT GIVE REFUNDS BASED ON THE WAIT."

Sorry, but business doesn't work this way. People can issue a charge-back on their credit card through the bank for up two years later. I don't see how anyone that has waited 4-8 months. (16-32 weeks) will have issues getting a refund whether or not you agree to it. You have clearly gone against your advertised terms of delivery.
  • I would suggest you switch to some sort of bulk buy model, where if enough people sign up you order parts.
  • Or take out a small business loan so that you can order enough inventory to have on hand to meet demand.
  • Or double your prices so that your profit is enough to fund the next one built. etc..
I wonder how much of the delay is due to availability of refurbished medical supplies though? I would imagine they are auction style items with multiple bidders. This might not be a factor, or it may be a huge factor. No idea.

You may have a great product but if you piss off enough people with admitted practices like this...new customers like me will be very hesitant.
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  #33  
Old 2013-03-22, 5:15pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bead crazy View Post
Jack what about doing like GTT does and get 1/2 payment down and the other 1/2 when the product ships. Give them a week to pay then move to the next person. Then go back and give the first person another week and move on to the next. People would not feel like they had so much money tied up and feel like they are being con'ed
I do like this option. And I do offer it. We went thru all this on another thread. At which time I took the advise and started offering that option. I still don't think it's about the money. People are ready to invest their money in the oxygen, when they call me. I think it's all about my response to the status checks. When I cannot meet the estimated completion time, people get mad and want to take their money else where. Thats when the money comes in to play.
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  #34  
Old 2013-03-22, 5:40pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smpalmer85 View Post
"I have no choice but to pull the order from someone else who doesnt mind waiting."
Not telling someone upfront that their purchase is going to be used to fund the completion of someone else's unit is definitely cause for concern if not outright fraud/ponzi.

From your website, "SOME ORDERS CAN TAKE 8 TO 12 WEEKS. BE SURE YOU CAN WAIT, BEFORE YOU ORDER. WE WILL NOT GIVE REFUNDS BASED ON THE WAIT."

Sorry, but business doesn't work this way. People can issue a charge-back on their credit card through the bank for up two years later. I don't see how anyone that has waited 4-8 months. (16-32 weeks) will have issues getting a refund whether or not you agree to it. You have clearly gone against your advertised terms of delivery.
  • I would suggest you switch to some sort of bulk buy model, where if enough people sign up you order parts.
  • Or take out a small business loan so that you can order enough inventory to have on hand to meet demand.
  • Or double your prices so that your profit is enough to fund the next one built. etc..
I wonder how much of the delay is due to availability of refurbished medical supplies though? I would imagine they are auction style items with multiple bidders. This might not be a factor, or it may be a huge factor. No idea.

You may have a great product but if you piss off enough people with admitted practices like this...new customers like me will be very hesitant.
The units we build do not have a name on them until they are complete and ready to be cleaned and boxed. To say I pull orders from someone or switch names is not what I meant. Fraud would mean that I took an order and collected their money with no INTENT of delivery. Of COURSE I intend to deliver, as I have the hundreds that I have sold. Fraud would be not answering my phone when I know, from the caller ID, that on the other end is one pissed off customer. And of course I know that the customer can always get their money back. I have made exception and given refunds. But the one thing you said that makes sense is your 3rd option. So I checked out some of the average prices on the same exact units (without my warranty and support). And here they are: M5-300.00, M10-460.00, M15-500.00 to 600.00. 10 lpm Sequal- Damn!
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  #35  
Old 2013-03-22, 5:47pm
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It is true that other companies I looked at had wait times of at least several weeks for the oxycons, at a much higher price for the same type of unit. Not all the companies had these times, but the prices for those who didn't were even higher. This is what lead me to order from Jack. Since other companies have you wait in any case, it didn't seem to me to be that big of an issue.

It seems to me EVERY vendor has their issues and we are expected to be understanding. If I wait a LONG time, past what is promised, I may or may not note it on the forum. I think this is a good way to help move along issues with vendors that need to be resolved. I HOPE I made the right choice, and I'm very impatient for my unit already as I just got my torch! But at least I knew upfront, and most of us do when ordering from them, and they responded to my questions when I asked.

It seems to me that everyone wants to pile on for a known issue of wait times or charging at time of order, but still wants the goods at that price. I'm not sure that can happen, but I think a partial payment plan is okay too for those who don't want to tie up the money, if that works out for this vendor.
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  #36  
Old 2013-03-22, 5:58pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oxydoc View Post
Oh yea, while you are looking at the Glass Supplier's availability on equipment, check out the prices. jack
I probably shouldn't have said anything in the first place. But really, it makes me sad when I see these kind of posts. I've watched a number of these threads, I do know that in the end you will make it good, you always do.

Really what I should have told you is what might be most informational to you, as a supplier. I do own two concentrators. When I purchased them I did check out prices. I know that I paid more, substantially more, for my concentrators than you charge. And I bought them anyway because not all transactions are good transactions, whether or not I get my goods. It was worth it for me to pay the extra money to get the equipment when I wanted it and not have to worry about a potential wait that would have for all practical purposes infuriate me. So instead of even talking to you about what you might or might not have been able to help me with, and giving you the choice of whether or not you wanted to accept the order, it was easier to dismiss you out of hand. Maybe somehow that kind of knowledge is good to help you keep these kinds of recurring problems off the forum.
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  #37  
Old 2013-03-22, 7:28pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PixieFireBeads View Post
I probably shouldn't have said anything in the first place. But really, it makes me sad when I see these kind of posts. I've watched a number of these threads, I do know that in the end you will make it good, you always do.

Really what I should have told you is what might be most informational to you, as a supplier. I do own two concentrators. When I purchased them I did check out prices. I know that I paid more, substantially more, for my concentrators than you charge. And I bought them anyway because not all transactions are good transactions, whether or not I get my goods. It was worth it for me to pay the extra money to get the equipment when I wanted it and not have to worry about a potential wait that would have for all practical purposes infuriate me. So instead of even talking to you about what you might or might not have been able to help me with, and giving you the choice of whether or not you wanted to accept the order, it was easier to dismiss you out of hand. Maybe somehow that kind of knowledge is good to help you keep these kinds of recurring problems off the forum.
And I respect you for that. You had a choice and did what you thought was best for you. I do understand that no one wants to wait. My whole business and future, right now depend on those who are willing to wait. Of course I wish it was different. I would love to take out a small business loan or have an investor hand me enough capital to buy huge quantities of equipment, hire more help and make everyone smile. Who knows, it could happen.
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  #38  
Old 2013-03-22, 9:43pm
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As a recent UO customer, I thought I'd chime in about my experience.

We sent in our old Hurricane, and although we hadn't ever hardly used it, it was an older prototype version, and wasn't running well at that point. Because of this, Jack said he was gonna treat us well.

We paid for a refurbishment of our old unit, and instead Jack agreed to give us a brand new unit. With this, he said it would go from a few weeks wait time, to 8-12 weeks wait. We found this to be generous and agreeable.

First off, I totally disagree with the, "those who bitch the most get their units the fastest" thing,

Second, there are a few people with valid complaints, some people have been waiting way too long.

With both of those things in mind, it still seems that most issues are blown out of proportion.

The website has always said there will be a 2-3 month wait, and yes I had to wait every bit of that.

Paid up 100% up front, and it took the full three months. There was a little bit of confusion when it was finished and ready to ship, because we prepaid shipping, and the records weren't clear.

So instead of shipping out on a friday, it shipped out on a Tuesday.

It arrived quickly (I'm one state over), and was very well packed. I was worried about this, because I read a few reviews about them coming in damaged.

Now, as far as the actual unit itself. I've only worked on it a couple times, but this things rocks! The addition of the internal holding tank is great! Totally solves the normal fluctuation. I fire it up right after my kiln, and then get organized for my day, so that the holding tank has time to fill.

After about 15 minutes, it's good to go. I'm able to run my GTT Scorpion very well. Definitely not 100%, but it's a HUGE upgrade from my daisy-chained medical units.

Because of back issues, I'm unable to lug around tanks, and I'm so glad to have this alternative available.

So glad, that I think it's time to upgrade to a GTT Phantom!

Jack maybe you could hook a brother up with one of those free mini-15's you've been handing out, so I can run that on the inner fire, and this new hurricane on the outer!
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  #39  
Old 2013-03-23, 8:41am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oxydoc View Post
I dont think it's rude at all. There are those who just simply chime in to beat a dead horse. If you have'nt had an experience with UO, good or bad where is the creedence in what you say? You are simply reading someone else's and forming an opinion. The complaints on the Customer service Kiosk should be factual, based on personal experience. jack
Obviously, you don't think it's rude. Clearly, you think it's completely appropriate. Which is why i will never order from you again.

You haven't wronged me. However, your behavior toward anyone who complains about your communication, and anyone who speaks up in support of them, speaks for itself.

Your momma didn't teach you right.
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  #40  
Old 2013-03-23, 8:44am
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You are absolutely right. But, I don't hear anyone calling and asking me "where is my money?"
REALLY

REALLY, JACK?

So what, exactly, do you think this thread, and all the others just like it, has been?
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  #41  
Old 2013-03-23, 8:53am
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Originally Posted by oxydoc View Post
You are absolutely right. But, I don't hear anyone calling and asking me "where is my money?" They know that the money goes toward the purchases I have to make. People also have the option of a down payment. I will get to the point someday when I can cut the wait down to a couple weeks. But, back in the day when we had distributors, they did exactly the same thing. They took orders, collected the money, then call in their order to us. Look on their website and see what the wait is on some of their equipment. I doubt very seriously if they don't require a full or partial payment up front. Some of them do have enough working capital to stock most of the items. But like every other product, demand rules and cannot be foreseen or prepared for. It all really comes down to what I tell my customers when they call or email for a status check. I have to tell them something. "I have no idea when it will be ready" sure as hell wont cut it. Oh yea, while you are looking at the Glass Supplier's availability on equipment, check out the prices. jack
For the record, I specifically asked you over the phone where my money was and was told it was none of my business.

You also told me over the phone more times than I care to remember that you were shipping out my equipment, and nothing has materialised.

Reputation is everything in business. I haven't received any tracking numbers yet. I guess you haven't sent anything out at all.
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  #42  
Old 2013-03-23, 9:11am
Patienceisavirtue Patienceisavirtue is offline
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Originally Posted by oxydoc View Post
The units we build do not have a name on them until they are complete and ready to be cleaned and boxed. To say I pull orders from someone or switch names is not what I meant. Fraud would mean that I took an order and collected their money with no INTENT of delivery. Of COURSE I intend to deliver, as I have the hundreds that I have sold. Fraud would be not answering my phone when I know, from the caller ID, that on the other end is one pissed off customer. And of course I know that the customer can always get their money back. I have made exception and given refunds. But the one thing you said that makes sense is your 3rd option. So I checked out some of the average prices on the same exact units (without my warranty and support). And here they are: M5-300.00, M10-460.00, M15-500.00 to 600.00. 10 lpm Sequal- Damn!
You have a credit of $2085 from me. According to you, you have built one unit, and one half completed.

Do you seriously not have the money to send out that one unit? If it really is completed and sitting around, is it really that big a deal to pack it up and send it out?

I ordered 5 units, so since you haven't finished them all, or even two, why don't we change it to four units, then you have $485 dollars from that order for shipping. More than enough to get it all to the UK.
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  #43  
Old 2013-03-23, 9:26am
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more changes on your order wont help it get shipped faster.
Not with Jack
Not with Nortel
Not on Etsy
Not anywhere.
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  #44  
Old 2013-03-23, 11:40am
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Unless your quoting 6 months to a year lead time on your new orders, based on these threads you are grossly underquoting. I think most of us are just baffled about why anyone would want to give you an interest free loan for that amount of time.
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  #45  
Old 2013-03-23, 2:02pm
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Unless your quoting 6 months to a year lead time on your new orders, based on these threads you are grossly underquoting. I think most of us are just baffled about why anyone would want to give you an interest free loan for that amount of time.
It's not only unethical, it's also illegal.
http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bu...rchandise-rule
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  #46  
Old 2013-03-23, 5:09pm
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This is unfortunate for the frustrated buyers who are expecting their orders within the timeframe as advertised. As a consumer, I would also expect a pretty firm delivery date, when the advertised build time comes to a head and direct accurate communication.

My worries about the collection of all monies upfront is that at some point "the gig is up." What happens if sales slow down and the company cannot afford to make their purchase to fill their orders in the advertised time. Not good, this seems to be the case. So when is the gig up? I would be worried about losing my money; where is the accountability.

I certainly wouldn't pay a builder upfront and in full to put an addition on my house or to build another home for me. In fear that the job would not get done and he could walk with my money. And I certainly wouldn't give a builder the benefit of the doubt if he claims that he is waiting to collect more similar orders and money to buy affordable/bulk materials to even begin and sustain the job.

I think in this case, buyers are taking a huge risk and should lower their expectations relative to other companies when ordering. And although it seems a quality product is being produced with good warrantied service, the business model as described in this thread is shady.
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  #47  
Old 2013-03-24, 1:02pm
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I like oxygen at 9 per HR not $1 per hour tanked.
And that's the last I'll say.
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  #48  
Old 2013-03-24, 1:07pm
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I like oxygen at 9 per HR not $1 per hour tanked.
And that's the last I'll say.
We all like the product, it's a fine product. That's not the issue.
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  #49  
Old 2013-03-24, 2:13pm
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Originally Posted by HotFireGlass View Post
I like oxygen at 9 per HR not $1 per hour tanked.
And that's the last I'll say.
This is truely what its all about. Is it worth the wait? Yes
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  #50  
Old 2013-03-24, 2:23pm
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Originally Posted by Patienceisavirtue View Post
You have a credit of $2085 from me. According to you, you have built one unit, and one half completed.

Do you seriously not have the money to send out that one unit? If it really is completed and sitting around, is it really that big a deal to pack it up and send it out?

I ordered 5 units, so since you haven't finished them all, or even two, why don't we change it to four units, then you have $485 dollars from that order for shipping. More than enough to get it all to the UK.
I will do your complete order as we agree. I will pay the shipping on all. The 85.00 that you paid for shipping, as you remember, was for one unit. I will ship all 5 without charging you anymore. 2 will ship Monday. I will post the tracking in your PM.
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  #51  
Old 2013-03-24, 4:07pm
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You're paying HIS shipping? I guess that's nice because of the wait.
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  #52  
Old 2013-03-24, 4:08pm
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Hurricane rocks btw!
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  #53  
Old 2013-03-24, 5:06pm
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Hurricane rocks btw!
Great to hear. It is the latest of all the upgrades.
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  #54  
Old 2013-03-24, 5:07pm
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You're paying HIS shipping? I guess that's nice because of the wait.
It is the only fair thing to do, after his wait.
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  #55  
Old 2013-03-24, 5:13pm
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I think in this case, buyers are taking a huge risk and should lower their expectations relative to other companies when ordering. And although it seems a quality product is being produced with good warrantied service, the business model as described in this thread is shady.



So, would it be better or different or safer, to require 1/2 upfront? I can do that. I can do whatever is necessary, short of nothing up front, to make customers feel good about the order.
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  #56  
Old 2013-03-24, 6:34pm
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It sounds like you maybe need to reposition the business a bit. Folks see the wait time you mention, but it's still viewed as a basic transaction: "I need an oxygen concentrator, I give you money, you give me the machine".

From the sounds of it, your business is really more like auto restoration where someone places an order, you find the junker to clean up and make pretty and serviceable then ship it out.

When you sort out how much you'd need up front, you need to cover the cost of the machine you're rehabbing and then collect the rest when it's ready. So in your case maybe it's more like 60% up front and the remainder on shipping, or whatever percentage is realistic.

From the sound of things, like you said, folks like the product, don't quibble too much over the price, but the purchasing experience is lackluster. So what it boils down to is managing expectations better. Like I said, folks are used to a straight transaction, but you're not really doing that, right?
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Old 2013-03-24, 7:14pm
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Originally Posted by menty666 View Post
It sounds like you maybe need to reposition the business a bit. Folks see the wait time you mention, but it's still viewed as a basic transaction: "I need an oxygen concentrator, I give you money, you give me the machine".

From the sounds of it, your business is really more like auto restoration where someone places an order, you find the junker to clean up and make pretty and serviceable then ship it out.

When you sort out how much you'd need up front, you need to cover the cost of the machine you're rehabbing and then collect the rest when it's ready. So in your case maybe it's more like 60% up front and the remainder on shipping, or whatever percentage is realistic.

From the sound of things, like you said, folks like the product, don't quibble too much over the price, but the purchasing experience is lackluster. So what it boils down to is managing expectations better. Like I said, folks are used to a straight transaction, but you're not really doing that, right?
Thats the best response yet. So, should I ask if they want that option or require it? I want to do this. We are growing and I want to do it right and fair.
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  #58  
Old 2013-03-24, 7:21pm
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moondanse moondanse is offline
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Your response to Kalera was reprehensible.
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  #59  
Old 2013-03-24, 7:42pm
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menty666 menty666 is offline
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Thats the best response yet. So, should I ask if they want that option or require it? I want to do this. We are growing and I want to do it right and fair.
Require it.

a) You're covering your costs. It sounds like funding the physical parts is one of the sticking points in your pipeline.

b) Sometimes less choice is better. I was buying bread the other day, looking for whole wheat bread. I had to dig through brands, variations, sizes of loaves, etc. What I needed was just a section where I could find whole wheat bread so I could get out of the store.


You need to manage the experience. If you start giving a lot of options, you're putting it back on the customer and that seems to be some of what's screwing you over.
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Old 2013-03-24, 10:16pm
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Your response to Kalera was reprehensible.
Thank you.
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