Questions from a Super-Noob

[KRessell]

Hi all!

I am a beginning lampworker. Actually, less than beginning. I just bought a teeny 10 dollar torch, and my first glass just a few days ago, and have yet to start a single bead. I haven't taken a class (they're expensive in my area), but I have read every scrap of information I can get from the internet, and I think it will do to get me started. However, I'm still left with a few questions I was hoping you kind and knowledgable people would be able to answer.

1.) Annealing: Is there any way to do it without shelling out 600 bucks for a kiln, or renting torch/kiln time from a shop? I was thinking maybe cranking my oven up to "clean", and gradually turning it down over the course of a day. I realize that sounds rediculous.... Is it possible to make a successful bead without annealing?
2.) Screw-ups, and fugly/cracked beads: Lets say you make a really gnarly bead. It's just gross, and there's no way to fix it. Is it possible to reheat the blob of glass, maybe pull a stringer out of it, and reuse it? I realize then your colors would be melty and funky, but you never know, maybe it could still end up good. But is it possible? Would the glass be so stressed out that it cracks immediately?
3.) The Melted Glass: How do you know if your glass blob/stringer end/rod end is hot enough to do what you want with it? I've read "It glows", "It feels right" and "You just know", but nothing close to a real answer. I hope it's not just a practise thing, because I have a feeling I could waste a ton of glass practising....
4.) Stringers: All the tutorials say, "Use a stringer, and a blob/dot of glass etc....". Is that all they do? Is there a way to get more detail out of them? Maybe with a super fine one? Or is it blobs first, details with tools later?
5.) Clothing: What's the likelihood of me ruining my favorite tshirts with exploding glass chunks? Should I wear a big poncho and a Darth Vader helmet, or will my hands and arms be most apt to catch the molten bits as they fly off the exploding bead? (That's a fun mental picture!)

So, that's all! Thanks a bunch in advance for your help!

~KRessell

[Raven Wylder]

Welcome to lampwork, but I warn you now, glass becomes an addiction. First thing's first, please go and read the safety room of this forum - lots of great tips. Safety and ventilation are a must - also, make sure your propane tank's not inside. There's much more to this but again, please refer to the the safety room.

1. Only a kiln can anneal the beads but what you can do is to use a fiber blanket or a crockpot with vermiculite to help until you can batch anneal your beads. An oven, I don't think gets hot enough and would be difficult to control the temps.
2. Funky beads can be pulled into a stringer but depending on the colors, I don't know if you'd want to use it? Up to you I guess.
3. Yep, you'll know and see the difference in the glass once you light the torch and try to melt a rod. I can totally understand not wanting to waste glass so get try to get a rod of white, rod of grey and rod of transparent (these colors are relatively cheap, don't use expensive glass at the get go). When you melt a blob of white, notice how quickily it starts to melt and how easily you can lose control. Grey's more stiff and a transparent is somewhere inbetween or more stiff depending on the color. Just melt the ends and you can play and see how the glass reacts to heat. Now try putting it on a mandrel - see how easy/hard the three colors are to wrap around the mandrel and how easy/hard it is to make it round. If you have any stained glass scrap glass, you can try that so you don't waste but depending on the glass, it'll have different properties then lampwork rods (stiffer, or melts easily) oh, and some stained glass changes or gets sooty so don't get discouraged.
4. Stringer control is an art - there are some people that can make the stringer do whatever they want. But try this... use a stringer and make 4 perfectly spaced dots on a bead, then make 6, 8, and so on until you can put as many perfectly spaced dots as you want on the bead to cover it.
5. Don't wear any acrylic or "plastic fibers", this material melts onto you skin and sticks to it. I wouldn't wear my fave shirt either but that's just me. You want to be covered up but by gently heating the rod first, you'll less liking have exploding chunks. But it happens to all of us, especially if it's a shocky rod. Oh and make sure the rod's pointing down and away from you when you're getting it used to the flame. Since everyone burns themselves at least once, make sure you have aloe handy. Make sure you're wearing your diddy's to protect your eyes.

Hope that helps...

[Pine Cone]

According to:

http://www.sundanceglass.com/kilnlg.htm

it is possible to partially anneal the bead in the flame.

On their kiln page (link above), which you should DEFINITELY visit (although I'm probably going with an Arrow Springs kiln), they mention that there are four methods of cooling glass beads. You can:

...partially anneal in the flame (takes skill);

...or you can cool but not anneal in a fiber blanket;

...or you can cool but not anneal in a crock pot filled with vermiculite

...or you can use a kiln in a certain way, according to the needs of the type of glass you are using.

That link, above, also gives two reason why you need a kiln.

I'm struggling with various problems relating to getting set up also. I wish you well on your journey.

[Just Nancy]

If you do a controlled cool you can save your beads. Then find someone to batch anneal them. You may loose some if they break in transit and such, but you will have annealled beads.

The clothing. Glass might get you so I wouldn't wear your favorite t-shirt or work on a flamable table or flooring. Some wear a suede apron (I do when I'm layered for winter). But I've only actually gotten one burn hole in years. So it could happen, but it isn't a regular thing.

The stringer deal may be easier to answer. Most of the decorations are done with a stringer. Off the top of my head, dots, lines, squiggles. Then you can use the stringer cold as a tool. To twist the glass in the bead or to rake it.

When is the glass ready? It kind of depends how you start your bead, but I'll add to the vague answers. Someplace afgter it starts to bend but before it drops down to your bench. Really it won't take long to learn. If it is too cold it just kind of hits the mandrel and does nothing. Like if it was still cold. When it is about to drop to the table it is more, say like honey. There is a fair bit of range between the two and you will find it quickly.

I think white is the perfect glass for learning about glass. It is so much easier to read that the others.

If you get a chance there might be a glass group in your area. Just seeing it a couple times helps a lot. Or of course there is the class option. Good luck.

[playswithfire104]

For a real cheap way to start - use glass that you would throw in the recycling bin to play with. Wear safty glasses break up bottles and hold with pliers in the flame till they will stick to the mandrel. That way if you screw up you won't be out any glass money, and if you make cool beads you can call them recycled glass beads. Some wine and tea comes in really cool blue glass bottles.

[evilglass]

Originally Posted by KRessell

Hi all!

I am a beginning lampworker. Actually, less than beginning. I just bought a teeny 10 dollar torch, and my first glass just a few days ago, and have yet to start a single bead. I haven't taken a class (they're expensive in my area), but I have read every scrap of information I can get from the internet, and I think it will do to get me started. However, I'm still left with a few questions I was hoping you kind and knowledgable people would be able to answer.

1.) Annealing: Is there any way to do it without shelling out 600 bucks for a kiln, or renting torch/kiln time from a shop? I was thinking maybe cranking my
oven up to "clean", and gradually turning it down over the course of a day. I realize that sounds rediculous.... Is it possible to make a successful bead without annealing?
2.) Screw-ups, and fugly/cracked beads: Lets say you make a really gnarly bead. It's just gross, and there's no way to fix it. Is it possible to reheat the blob of glass, maybe pull a stringer out of it, and reuse it? I realize then your colors would be melty and funky, but you never know, maybe it could still end up good. But is it possible? Would the glass be so stressed out that it cracks immediately?
3.) The Melted Glass: How do you know if your glass blob/stringer end/rod end is hot enough to do what you want with it? I've read "It glows", "It feels right" and "You just know", but nothing close to a real answer. I hope it's not just a practise thing, because I have a feeling I could waste a ton of glass practising....
4.) Stringers: All the tutorials say, "Use a stringer, and a blob/dot of glass etc....". Is that all they do? Is there a way to get more detail out of them? Maybe with a super fine one? Or is it blobs first, details with tools later?
5.) Clothing: What's the likelihood of me ruining my favorite tshirts with exploding glass chunks? Should I wear a big poncho and a Darth Vader helmet, or will my hands and arms be most apt to catch the molten bits as they fly off the exploding bead? (That's a fun mental picture!)

So, that's all! Thanks a bunch in advance for your help!

~KRessell

Ok, I'll address one and five

1) you need a kiln to anneal beads. You do not have to pay $600 for one. If you are patient, you might find one at a yard sale or a pawn shop. I have two kilns-one is a smallish, front loader, the other a huge octagonal one. I paid less than $100 total for both. One came from a pawn shop, the other from a yard sale. Both are ceramics kilns.

I have home built controllers.

My newest one is a digital one hubby put together for me for under $50. I have to go out and manually increase the temperature on it, and turn the knob to medium to get it up above 900, then back down to ramp down, but it works just fine.

I was doing glass for over a year before I got a kiln, also.

You can't sell anything unless it's kiln annealed, period.

Batch annealing is acceptable for beads, though you may have issues with really large, sculptural, and pressed beads not surviving it as well as round or donut shaped beads do.

5) clothing-natural fibers-I don't like long sleeves as bits of glass seem to pop off rods and into the cuffs all the time. Long pants-jeans are great, but I'll wear cotton knits. I'd say close toed shoes, but I'd be lying if I said I wore them. However, with my set up, it would be extremely difficult for something to hit my feet-metal table that I'm actually almost up against while working. If that changed, I'd wear tennies, not sandals, LOL.

[miahawk]

don't work at a torch without the right eye protection! I didn't see glasses mentioned in your post. I hope you have them.

I picked up a welder's apron, they don't cost much and they've prevented a lot of burns in my lap region!

[Otter's Flame]

Not trying to argue with you Pine Cone but you CAN'T anneal or partially anneal a bead in the flame. Yes the term is "flame annealing" but it is very misleading. What you generally do in the flame after making a bead is try and get the bead relatively the same heat all over before you put it in your kiln, fiber blanket or vermiculite. This will help to reduce cracking issues. There is no such thing as a "partially annealed bead". The annealing range for most 104 COE glass is between 920 degrees and 970 degrees. The glass must be held at somewhere in this range for a given duration depending on the size and a couple of other variables. The strain point of most 104 COE glass is 840 degrees. You simply can't do this consistently to the entire piece of glass in a torch for the amount of time it would take to properly anneal the glass.

KRessell
Well I guess I covered question #1

#2. It is possible but one issue you would have to deal with is bead release inside the bead unless you are doing off mandrel work. The bead must be totally free of bead release if you want to use it for another bead. As far as the glass cracking if you are trying to re-heat it...a kiln would help you re-heat it to just below working temperature without it cracking in the flame when you went to re-work it. Otherwise, sometimes you can introduce it to the flame slow enough it doesn't shatter but often it will break.

#3.

Originally Posted by Kressell

How do you know if your glass .....is hot enough.... I've read "It glows", "It feels right" and "You just know", but nothing close to a real answer. I hope it's not just a practice thing, because I have a feeling I could waste a ton of glass practicing

Although you say you haven't read anything close to a "real answer" I believe you have read the real answer...although it may not have been an answer you wanted and I know how frustrating that can be. Part of lampworking is developing a "feel" for the glass.....you watch it, watch the color...but then again clear doesn't glow like white, or turn a different color like green will....so you watch, you feel and yes, I am sorry to say you PRACTICE. I am not sure that going into this endeavor with the belief that practicing is actually "wasting glass". There is a lot to be learned and with every mistake you make, with every wind of the glass you will be learning. You may not produce a masterpiece of glass artisan ship with your first bead but I would be hesitant to quantify it as wasted glass.

#4. My personal take on this is that you will need that dreaded practice once again to develop stringer control. If you can find beads by Anastasia in the gallery you will find an example of complete mastery of stringer control. She uses VERY FEW tools for her designs. Some people use a lot of tools, some do not. It depends on what type of designs you like to make and what you are comfortable with.

#5. Seems to have been covered pretty well. Just stick with cotton clothing and avoid synthetic material. I torch with short sleeves most of the year and I am not hideously scarred.....yet.

Welcome to this wonderful addiction, may all your glassy dreams come true. I am sure I sound gruff but I am really not. I will be more than happy to answer any questions you may have. Make sure you take advantage of some of the amazingy talented (and I do not fit into that category) and generous people on this forum. Have fun!

Otter

[playswithfire104]

Originally Posted by miahawk

don't work at a torch without the right eye protection! I didn't see glasses mentioned in your post. I hope you have them.


.
!

I can't believe we didn't think of this! This and ventalation are easily the MOST important things you MUST have!

[Emily]

I don't know what kind of torch your "teeny 10 dollar torch" is, but I doubt you'll be happy with it. If you're trying to work glass with a little butane pencil torch, it's not going to happen. You're going to run out of fuel almost instantaneously, before anything interesting happens with the glass.

You need to start with a HotHead. It's torch designed for melting glass. They run about $30-40. It's similar to the torch head that plumbers use, but nobody who tries melting glass with a plumber's torch or other hardware store torch is ever happy with it. (Go ahead -- search the archives here, at WetCanvas!, and anywhere else you can find. Unfortunately, the archives at the ISGB forum disappeared at the last forum makeover and are no longer accessible.) The HotHead runs on the little 1 lb. canisters of propane or MAPP gas. MAPP gas is hotter but more expensive. You can buy a hose assembly to hook up to a larger bulk tank of propane or MAPP if you decide you like it, and that will eliminate the nasty problem of the little canisters getting cold and acting like they're empty, and the problem of disposing of the empties. It's legal most places to have two of the 1 lb. canisters inside at any given time. It is NOT legal or safe to have a larger fuel tank inside, so if you get a bulk tank you have to figure out a way to run a hose or pipe from the outside to your work area, or work outside. We all manage, so you can, too. MAPP gas works better with the HotHead, but people do use propane with it, too. There's a similar torch called the Fireworks that's about the same price, but people are more satisfied with the HotHead. MAPP is a brand name for brazing fuel.

You absolutely, positively, need safety glasses (at a minimum) to protect your eyes from flying bits of glass. Glass thermal-shocks when introduced to heat, and often will fly toward you. Careful handling can minimize this, but you'll be learning how to handle glass, so you can't be assured of handling the glass perfectly every time. Besides, even those of us with experience won't be caught without our glasses -- not if we have any brains in our heads or value our eyesight. Glass also generates a bright orange flare in the flame, which makes it difficult to see what you're doing. If possible, you should get glasses with a filter that cuts out the flare. For soft glass (soda-lime glass, which is what you'd be using with a torch like the Hot Head), looking at the flare will tire your eyes but not damage your vision, so you could get away with just clear safety glasses if you had to, but you'll be more comfortable with a filter. You can buy didymium (die-dim-ee-um) glasses, or glasses with an ACE (I think that stands for something like "amethyst contrast enhancement) filter. A company called Auralens makes a filter called AUR-92, which is their brand of ACE filter. There's also a company called Phillips Safety that makes eyewear of this sort. Prices for glasses vary, largely according to the frame, but the most budget framed ones start in the $30-40 range, I think.

If you're making beads, you need mandrels. You can get stainless steel welding rods from a welding supply store. Cut them into thirds. If the ends are sharp or rough, you'll want to grind them to round them off a little. The kind of welding rod you're looking for are TIG welding rod (say "tig," not T-I-G), 316L or 308L alloy. 3/32 of an inch is the most common thickness. 1/16 inch is also popular, but is more difficult to handle for a beginner, and bend more easily. You can buy pre-cut mandrels from a glass supplier, of course, but making them yourself is cheaper in the long run. If you're just trying this out to see if you like it, you might not want to buy welding rods right off, because you'll have to buy in quantity.

For cheap glass to use for practice, find out if there's a shop in your area that does stained glass, and ask if you can buy their scrap glass. (Maybe they'll even give you some.) You can't use more than one color in a bead, because you won't know the COE (co-efficient of expansion) of the glass. Stained glass workers don't care about COE, because when the glass is cold, it doesn't matter. When glass is hot, if you mix glasses of different COEs, the glass cracks. Cut the stained glass into pieces not more than two inches long, hold in needlenose pliers or big tweezers, and GENTLY begin warming in the flame. Stained glass pieces may be even more likely to thermal shock than glass rods, so be very careful when introducing them to the flame. When the pieces start getting warm enough to be flexible, you can start folding them and generally reducing them to a mass, but be careful not to trap air bubbles. If you find it more convenient than using pliers or tweezers, you can heat the end of a glass rod and warm the end of a piece of glass, then attach the piece to the rod and use the rod as a handle (punty).

I would recommend that you buy a copy of Cindy Jenkins' "Making Glass Beads." It's an introduction to glass beadmaking, and is available in paperback, so it's the most affordable beadmaking book that's out right now. It has also been out for more than ten years, so your chances of finding a used copy, if that's what you want to do, are better than for some other books.

With regard to your t-shirt question: this isn't an activity for your good clothes. Mostly clothes don't get damaged, but glass does shock sometimes. Do wear natural fibers. Do NOT wear Polartec or similar fleece, because bits of hot glass will melt the fibers a little (or a lot) and stick. Fleece will get damaged, and if you do drop a large blob of glass, or come into contact with the flame of your torch, the fiber could melt onto your skin and damage YOU.

[tt4st]

Hey K, where abouts in San Diego do you live???? I could give you a demo if you need one.

[Pine Cone]

Originally Posted by Otter's Flame

Not trying to argue with you Pine Cone but you CAN'T anneal or partially anneal a bead in the flame....[skip]....There is no such thing as a "partially annealed bead".

Hiya Otter,

Your argument is with the folks at the link I offered. I have no experience myself, since I have not yet lampworked at all. They, however, make and sell kilns to lampworkers. They are a company who claims to offer expert advice on the need for, and use of, KILNS. If you have any further argument, after reading this clarification post, I hope you will take it to them.

Although there is much more information than I can include here if you visit the link, here is my post again, but with a couple of additional comments in red and blue for those artists who wish to learn how to partially flame anneal before putting their beads in their kiln. (From the demos I've seen of partial flame annealling on DVD, it is a delicate balancing act, but helpful for artists to do this before transferring their bead to the kiln, under some circumstances.....

Originally Posted by me, earlier

According to:

http://www.sundanceglass.com/kilnlg.htm

it is possible to partially anneal the bead in the flame.

According to them, "[You can cool] the bead by slowly removing it from the torch flame. This is called flame annealing. Many artists use this method of flame annealing even if they are using a kiln. This may keep smaller sized beads from thermal shocking This method can do some annealing for any sized bead if done properly."

On their kiln page (link above), which you should DEFINITELY visit (although I'm probably going with an Arrow Springs kiln), they mention that there are four methods of cooling glass beads. However, please be aware that cooling a bead does NOT equal annealling it. And you must anneal your beads properly if you want to, as you stated in your initial question, make "successful beads." You can:

...partially anneal in the flame (takes skill);

...or you can cool but not anneal in a fiber blanket;

...or you can cool but not anneal in a crock pot filled with vermiculite

...or you can use a kiln in a certain way, according to the needs of the type of glass you are using.

That link, above, also gives two reasons why you really do need a kiln if you are going to make "successful" lampwork beads.

I'm struggling with various problems relating to getting set up also. I wish you well on your journey.

[Otter's Flame]

I read the link before I posted. I just wanted to make clear that although the term is "flame annealing" the term itself is misleading. You don't actually anneal the bead, you just heat it through. It is something we all do that will help heat management sins and help prevent cracking as the bead cools.

Originally Posted by Pine Cone

....it is a delicate balancing act, but helpful for artists to do this before transferring their bead to the kiln, under some circumstances.....

It is really not that much of a delicate balancing act and it is something you should do EVERY TIME you finish a bead before putting it in the kiln, not just "under some circumstances".

[Pine Cone]

Hiya again Otter,

Here is their name, number, etc. I'm sure they would be interested to learn from you:

Sundance Art Glass
Makers of HG Kilns

Call them at 1-888-4HOTGLASS with your corrections, or write them at:

6052 Foster
Paradise, California 95969

[Abacus Beads]

AS far as a kiln goes keep your eye out on e-bay. sometime you can catch a great deal
Liz R

[sanglass]

You have already gotten a lot of good advice. My only contribution would be on number 3.

To me, the best way to "learn" glass is to take a longish rod and place the center of it in the flame holding one end in either hand. Keep rotating the rod in the flame and as it begins to glow, you will notice a difference in the "feel" of it. When you can easily push the ends into the middle, you will get a blob of glass. This means the glass is soft enough to manipulate. Too long in the flame and the glass will drip, so try keeping it there, once it is hot enough, by taking it in and out of the flame.

When you can do that easily, try this. Get a pea sized glob working between the two ends and take the glass out of the flame. Cool for about 5 seconds (count slowly) and pull. This is one method of pulling stringer. This is how my first teacher taught us to get a "feel" for the glass. Pulling stringer teaches heat control and shows you the properties of the glass without "wasting" it (you can always melt the stringer down and start all over again).

Of course, practice, practice, practice.
And patience--especially if you are using a torch not intended for lampworking.

Good luck!

[Toni Lutman]

Originally Posted by Pine Cone

Hiya again Otter,

Here is their name, number, etc. I'm sure they would be interested to learn from you:

Sundance Art Glass
Makers of HG Kilns

Call them at 1-888-4HOTGLASS with your corrections, or write them at:

6052 Foster
Paradise, California 95969

Pine Cone,

Otter's post was entirely correct, and very well explained. If you've never lampworked before, and expect to at a later date, I think you'd be well advised to check out some additional references.

[ROC]

One suggestion from me. Check out videos & tutorial videos (several on youtube) so you can see what the glass does, or get a "learning to make glass beads" video. It really helped me to see it in action in addition to all the reading I had done. Then get out there and practice so you can get a feel for what the glass does. Fair warning, though, if you play with fire you will get burned. Don't let it put you off, just expect at sometime it's bound to happen. In the overall scheme of things, it's a small inconvenience compared to the excitement of creating with glass!

[Schermo]

Hello to all of you with lots, some, little or no experience at the torch. I'm not the most experienced beadmaker on this forum, but I have been making beads for eight+ years, and teaching beadmaking for six+. I am well grounded from both an educational, as well as an experiential perspective about how glass beads are made, and I'd like to share my thoughts on a few of the issues being discussed here. These are only my opinions, and I know from experience that not all torchworkers share the same opinions on any given subject. And yes, I feel strongly about this. Apologies in advance for any toes I trod on. I am strident because I care....

Issue #1: Teaching yourself on a $10 torch, with no more information beforehand than asking whoever responds on an internet lampworkers forum:

Melting glass and working with flammable gases is an inherently dangerous pursuit, not unlike learning to drive a car. There's no guarantees that you'll be hurt if you don't know what you're doing, but the potential is there for catastrophic results.

Let me ask you this:
Would you attempt to teach yourself how to drive a car, using a vehicle unfit to be driven, with no more information than what you'd heard a couple of guys down at the auto repair shop chatting about? Might be safe, but I hope I'm not on the same street as you when you take that beater out on the open road.....

My point is this: There are plenty of books available with information. There are several less expensive ways to approach melting glass (hothead torch, didymium glasses, working in a safe area with good cross ventilation) without having to shell out an initial $500 - $2500 for a full studio set up. But, you very likely will end up spending about $150 minimum to do it safely and productively. You are talking about working with potentially dangerous materials, and a fairly hazardous process (from several standpoints) and it is YOUR responsibility to keep yourself safe, so don't expect an education in beadmaking by asking a couple questions of people who may or may not know what they're talking about on an internet chat forum.

#2. Flame annealing. Otter is absolutely correct, and what it says on Sundance website is:

Cooling the bead by slowly removing it from the torch flame. This is called flame annealing. Many artists use this method of flame annealing even if they are using a kiln.

• This may keep smaller sized beads from thermal shocking
• This method can do some annealing for any sized bead if done properly.

Unfortunately, Pine Cone, if you've never made beads, and you don't understand annealing, I can see how this might be confusing to you.

As Otter stated, "flame annealing" is a misleading term. The annealing process requires several steps, and to successfully prepare the bead to be put in the kiln for the annealing cycle (or to put in a crockpot or fiber blanket, to be batch annealed later) you will have greater success if you first allow the heat in the bead to even out by cooling in the back part of the flame for anywhere from 1 to 3 minutes, depending on the size of the piece. This accomplishes the preliminary step to starting an annealing cycle, which is what the website means when they state that this method can do "some annealing". (Which is not actually correct, although I understand what they're trying to get at.)

The annealing cycle is actually the process of holding the glass in a certain temperature range for a specific amount of time, and then allowing the glass to cool very slowly, at a specific rate, based on several factors. "Flame Annealing" prior to putting a bead in the kiln simply allows the bead to lose heat from the middle slowly, without allowing the outside glass to cool down too quickly. It prepares the bead, it doesn't actually anneal it.

Good luck to you, KRessell, in learning to make beads. Please, please take the time & energy to really learn as much as you can from well documented sources before you start melting glass. As I said, you might well do just fine, but the potential is there for very big problems, if you don't understand the inherent risks, and what you have to do to keep yourself safe.

Melt safely,
Schermo

[Shawn T]

Interesting Thread and thank you all for your wonderful points of view on this issue.

Otter, I so appreciate the time and effort you have taken to try and explain things.

Schermo once again you speak better than anyone I know and thanks for again explain the process of flame annealing or lack there of.

Pine Cone, I do see where the confusion my lie and I myself was very concerned when I read you post, and YES I did go to the link. Heck it's not my website but I wouldn't have written it that way if I was selling kilns, I see where a new person might not understand the process.

After I read the link A few time I see you must read carefully so I am going to copy and paste from sundance and highlight where I think the difference are in what we are trying to explain here and what some people are saying. First off you must understand the difference between the Annealing process and Cooling your beads.

There are two reasons you would need a kiln designed for lampworkers:

* When you are done working the bead in a torch, you need to cool your bead slow enough so it will not thermal shock and crack. A kiln will easily do this. It is important to note that you may still have stress in the bead even if you have cooled the bead successfully without cracking. The glass bead must also be properly annealed.
* Annealing the glass bead is accomplished by holding the bead at a particular temperature for a particular period of time. Only a kiln will do this. The temperature depends on the type of glass you are using (Moretti is about 940 degrees F) and the length of time depends on the thickest part of the bead (a typical time might be 15 minutes. Longer won't hurt). In other words the larger the bead the longer the annealing time. Beads can be
o cooled, then at any time later, put back into a cold kiln and brought up to temperature for annealing, or
o the annealing can be done immediately by putting the bead, still on the mandrel, directly into a hot kiln right from the torch flame. A HotGlass kiln is specially designed so a bead can be safely put directly into a hot kiln.

There are four popular methods of cooling glass beads.
* Cooling the bead by slowly removing it from the torch flame. This is called flame annealing. Many artists use this method of flame annealing even if they are using a kiln.
o This may keep smaller sized beads from thermal shocking
o This method can do some annealing for any sized bead if done properly.
* Placing your beads between two layers of fiber blanket. See more about this.
o This method may keep smaller beads from thermal shocking.
o This method does nothing to anneal your glass bead.
* Bury your bead deep in a hot crock pot filled with hot vermiculite.
o This method may keep smaller beads from thermal shocking.
o This method does nothing to anneal your glass bead.
* Place your bead in a heated kiln.
o Using a kiln will keep any sized bead from thermal shocking.
o Using a kiln will anneal your glass bead if kept at the correct temperature for a sufficient period of time.

I also wanted to post all this just so anyone who didn't click on the link had all the information right here from Sundance's site since it was in question.

This process isn't an easy one to understand especially when your knew to the glass word, Gosh I remember It being a Greek language to me, and there are some people who have different beliefs on this. The beliefs I speak of range on what temp to set your kiln at, and exactly what cycle you should run your kiln schedule at. I don't know anyone who doesn't anneal their beads, marbles, sculpture work or any glass in a kiln.

[KRessell]

Wow, lots of replies, and so much good advice. Thanks everyone, you've all been very helpful.
I feel like I should reply to everything, so lets hope I don't get crazy wordy.
Glasses. For sure. I didn't mention them because that's taken care of. I'm all about eye safety. You only get two, right?

Otter, I'm not adverse to practising at all. I'd just like to rapidly accheive proficiency. If I can learn from experienced people like you, it will save me frustration and money, and I can start making fabulously pretty things sooner. Also, thanks for explaining why annealing is necissary, and thanks PineCone for the ways I can cool before I anneal.

Emily, my torch is one of the plumber types. I don't plan on using it forever, just long enough for me to get the idea, and see if I'm willing to invest more into this hobby. Thanks for the book suggestion, I'll definately check it out.

Suzanne, a demo would be so nice! It would be great to meet someone who does this and see their setup. =D

Ebay! Yes! I didn't even think of that. Thanks Liz R!

San, that's the best description of getting a feel for the glass that I've read. Thanks soso much!

Roc, thanks, I will for sure check out YouTube. Did you teach yourself too?

Schermo, you shouldn't worry so much! My questions were largely about style and technique, because I've got safetly under controll. My workspace is in a flame-resistant and well ventilated area, the first thing I bought were my glasses, and I'm smart enough to tie my hair back, and not poke my fingers in the flame. And I figure that no one tought the very first lampworkers exactly what to do, so all the articles and tutorials I've read give me at least a little leg up from starting with no idea at all. It is nice, though, to be part of a forum where people care as much as you do. Glad to have such experienced people to learn from.

One last question, I hope no one minds. How long can you keep your stuff in the crock pot or blanket before it's fired?

That's all, thanks again to everyone who's written. I've learned lots, and I appreciate it very much!

~K

[Sue in Maine]

To answer your question of how long to leave your beads, your only goal in putting your beads in either the crock pot or fiber blanket is to allow the hot beads to cool very slowly to avoid thermal shocking them. Once they are cool, you're okay to put them away until you can batch anneal them in a kiln. Here is the hard part: DO NOT PEEK AS THEY COOL.

Cold air hitting a hot bead will crack an unannealed bead. Even a peek can ruin your masterpiece so be patient. You will have better luck with smaller beads until you are able to afford a kiln. The larger beads tend to shock. Sometimes I get away with it and sometimes I don't.

(Note to self: Take the darned chillipepper OUT of the box and set it up!)

One more thing: Welcome to the wonderful world of glass. Don't fret if you become addicted. If there's a cure, we addicts are not interested in hearing about it! lol

Sue

[Schermo]

Originally Posted by KRessell

Otter, I'm not adverse to practising at all. I'd just like to rapidly accheive proficiency. If I can learn from experienced people like you, it will save me frustration and money, and I can start making fabulously pretty things sooner.....
.... And I figure that no one taught the very first lampworkers exactly what to do, so all the articles and tutorials I've read give me at least a little leg up from starting with no idea at all. It is nice, though, to be part of a forum where people care as much as you do. Glad to have such experienced people to learn from.

~K

~K,

I'm always glad to help new lampworkers; It's why I teach, I like to explain things and help people "get it". (Well, and showing off what I know....!) Please don't be afraid to keep asking questions here. That's what this area is for.

You're right that some of the first independent lampworkers in this country started with plumbers torches and no idea what they were doing. And, their beads sucked for a very long time, because they were discovering / making mistakes as they went along. Fortunately for us, there are loads of resources, tools, much better equipment and a wider range of materials. Anyone starting lampworking today is already five steps ahead.

However, the one thing that is most difficult to understand when you're first starting out is that you CAN'T achieve "proficiency" any faster by reading or asking or even by having someone show you. You can learn time saving tricks, get helpful tips, buy equipment that, once you know how to use it, will help with making the exact same bead over and over again. But, you will ONLY become proficient if sit at the torch for many, many hours making beads! (And I'm glad to hear you're willing to practice, but you have unfortunately pushed one of my hot buttons!)

Learning to make beads isn't a HEAD thing, it's an eye / hand / brain COORDINATION thing. It takes time, repetition and everything falling into place on an internal level. There are no short-cuts.

No one can TELL you, SHOW you, or give you a tool that's gonna make it any faster to make fabulous, well shaped beads. Sorry buddy - you got to sit at the torch and melt glass like the rest of us! LOL (But, that's not necessarily a bad thing.... ) You'll discover that messing up beads really isn't a waste of expensive glass, it's usually a very valuable education.....

Sorry to come on strong, but just imagine in a couple years, when you're making amazing beads that you've put blood, sweat & tears (not to mention mucho bucks...) into learning. And some new beadmaker comes on the message board and says, "Hey, I want to learn how to do this, but I don't want to spend a lot of money and I don't want to have to spend forever getting good at it. How do I do it really well, really cheaply and right away?" (Okay, I know you didn't say this, but just put your head there for a minute and imagine your first response to this person......)

~K, we look forward to seeing your first beads! Don't worry about me getting all worked up... My post is usually worse than my bite! LOL

Schermo

[Emily]

Originally Posted by Schermo

people who may or may not know what they're talking about on an internet chat forum.

Schermo, my dear, if I thought this was aimed at me, I would absolutely, positively, finally post that picture of you from the Silly Bead contest at the Lowell Gathering (with the "bank" that Ofilia made for you). Don't think for a moment that I don't still have it . . .

KRessell -- may I call you K? -- if you try beadmaking and enjoy it at all, spend the $40-ish and buy a HotHead. Cindy Jenkins invented it because she thought there should be something available for people who weren't able or ready to set up an oxygen-propane system, and the hardware store torches are really not satisfactory. Yes, people managed, in the dim, dark ages of 20 years ago, but they made a lot of dim, dark beads. I never used a plumber's torch -- even my HotHead phase was pretty short -- but I think the main problem with using it for glass is that the beads come out cruddy and gray. I guess you'll find out. With a HotHead, if people are having trouble with their glass getting gray or dirty-looking, the usual advice is to move farther away from the head of the torch. Try working about four or five inches away from the torch and see how that goes.

By the way, wonderful beads can be made on a HotHead. The prize of my bead collection was made by someone who uses a HotHead -- but she also has talent, and you can't buy talent, dammit.

K, please don't feel like we're all jumping on your head. It sounds like you have done some homework and given this activity some thought -- good for you! We had no way of knowing whether you had or hadn't, and we do occasionally get people wandering in who haven't grasped the idea that playing with glass and flame is slightly more hazardous than messing with Play-Doh.

I wish the term "flame annealing" would just go the *bleep* away. Yes, theoretically if you held the bead at the proper temperature in the flame for the proper length of time you could anneal it, but in the real world, it ain't going to happen. Too many variables, too little patience. Although what Sundance says on its webpage may technically be correct, it's not helping matters. "Flame cooling" would be a better term, even if it seems a little paradoxical (hey, I like paradox).

By the way, unless you're within driving distance and can go pick up merchandise, you might not love Sundance as a vendor. They've been in business for a long time, so I suppose they must have some satisfied customers, but I don't order from them. (I have. I won't again.) I order from Arrow Springs a lot. Frantz is also good, although I hate their website. Mike Frantz is the guy with the main connection to Effetre in Italy, so he gets the new funky colors first. (As a newbie, stay away from the newest funky colors for a while. They tend to be tricky -- and expensive.) If you're looking for vendors, others will chime in with their favorites, I'm sure. There are a number of threads on the subject.

Glass is actually fairly cheap, if you stick to the basic colors. If you decide to work in Effetre (which used to be called Moretti, and the old name is still widely used) I would recommend a sampler of the basic transparents, pastels (which are the opaques), and the "special" colors, which are the reds, yellows, oranges, and browns. Don't ask me why they're called special. Skip the "hand-pulled" colors for now. They're expensive, the colors do funky things in the flame -- which you can exploit once you get some experience, but which would be a waste now -- and because they're hand-pulled, the rods tend to be shocky and bits fly off, so you need to treat them carefully. Get extra clear, black, white and ivory or dark ivory.

You can make beads without a kiln. You just can't sell beads without a kiln. I wouldn't recommend giving them to anyone who would be ticked off if they happen to crack, either.

The correct time to anneal a bead that has been cooled in fiber blanket or vermiculite is right before it cracks. When is that? Dunno. There's no way of telling how long an unannealed bead is going to last before the secret stresses make it pop in two. Yes, we wish there was, but there isn't. It might last forever. It might not.

I was making iced coffee a couple of months ago and poured hot coffee into a borosilicate measuring cup (can't say Pyrex, because it was Anchor Hocking brand) that was 40 years old at least, because I remember my mother using it to make iced tea in the 1960s. It cracked neatly almost in two (the parts didn't separate, but the crack ran right around 3/4 of the cup -- another 2 inches, and it would have fallen in 2 halves). A clean crack like that is generally a thermal shock -- however, the coffee couldn't have been hotter than 300 degrees, which is a temperature that boro shouldn't notice. Conclusion? (as discussed by people in the boro forum here) the glass wasn't properly annealed back when it was made, 40-some years ago. It was going to crack, sooner or later, and in this case it was considerably later. I did save most of the coffee, though. That was important -- I was thirsty!

[Peach Blossom Beads]

I have a complete HH set-up that I want to sell and MOST of it came from Sundance so it's close to what you see on their site, except for some of the tools. The things that did not come from Sundance are EXTRA items that I also have. (My father bought it as a gift for me - I wouldn't order from them either.)

The kit has everything you could possibly need including the torch, marver for torch, a 25ft. bulk hose, all connectors for bulk set-up, didys, the torch clamps, work surface that holds a 1lb tank, some tools, Making Glass Beads book by Cindy Jenkins, etc. etc.... plus I have glass, of course. I also have a small Paragon fusing kiln that I use to use to anneal my beads. It works great but doesn't have a controller, just a pyrometer. But I still have all of the beads I annealed in it and none have cracked or anything and this was almost 2 years ago!

If anyone is interested, please PM me. I'll be happy to discuss it all with you.

I don't have any other info to contribute to this thread. I think everyone else has done a good job. Well, maybe this: Otter, Sorry! I felt bad for you yesterday but didn't post b/c I think I may have been just as aggravated as you!

[tt4st]

pm'ed you to set up a demo!

[KRessell]

Thanks Sue! I was under the impression that putting your beads in the blanket was just a way to keep them warm until you can hurry to a kiln. And peeking is something I'm apt to do, so that's terrific advice.

However, the one thing that is most difficult to understand when you're first starting out is that you CAN'T achieve "proficiency" any faster by reading or asking or even by having someone show you.

That's wrong. You aren't considering that someone else's way of learning might be different than yours. I am one that likes to have advice and explinations and some theoretical knowledge before I try something first-hand. It helps me, it's part of my process. Earlier, you compared lampworking to driving a car. In Driver's Ed, you sit in a class, read books, listen to lectures. Driving is the last step, because when you're ready to start, you have all your book learnin' behind you.
I'm sorry to have pushed your bottons, as it were. The posts here have been wonderfully helpful, so you don't have to follow the thread if it aggravates you. Also, there's nothing wrong with not wanting to spend lots of money. I'm a woman of limited means, but that's no reason I can't enjoy this as much as anyone else. If I try it, and it's not for me, I won't be stuck with piles of equipment I won't ever use. It is terrible that your post is worse than your bite, since the post is all I see....
Emily, I don't feel like my head has been jumped on at all. Every single post has been useful in one way or another. I can definately understand more experienced people being frustrated if it seems someone doesn't have a clue.
If you don't mind, why don't you recomend Sundance? I've perused their website, they seem to have a good selection and reasonable prices. I bought my glass locally (just a few of my favorite colors, plus one or two for copying specific beads, and a bunch of clear), but I will check the boards for others opinions on vendors.
Again, thanks to everyone, your opinions and advice have been invaluable.
K

[Emily]

Originally Posted by KRessell

If you don't mind, why don't you recomend Sundance?

When I ordered from them, it took absolutely forever to get my order. It was long enough ago that I don't remember exactly how long, but I'm not one of those people who orders something and expects to have it in two days. It was weeks and weeks. When I called to inquire about it, the attitude of the person who answered the phone was basically, "uh, yeah, well, we'll maybe think about shipping it next week or so." It was my basic start-up kit (so this was years ago, but I haven't heard anything to make me change my opinion) and didn't include anything unusual that had to be fabricated. I had ordered a sampler of glass, and what I got seemed to be a random assortment of whatever was lying around. I wasn't experienced enough to know what the glass was, and nothing was labeled. It included some rods that I couldn't identify at the time, but which I think are alabastro -- a very tricky glass to use, and not something you put in a basic assortment. (It's frequently called "alabast*rd" and lots of people refuse to use it at all. It's shocky and boils -- pretty if you can make it behave, but . . .)

At the time I started lampworking, there were also a lot of complaints about Sundance and its kilns, both in terms of quality and in terms of delivery being delayed for months. That was quite a while ago, and I don't know whether those concerns are still valid. My own experience with their cavalier (at best) customer service was enough to put me off ordering from them again, particularly since there are other suppliers with whom I've been pleased. As I said, they must have satisfied customers or they wouldn't be in business. I'm just not one.

[Peach Blossom Beads]

When my father ordered my kit it was for Christmas. Well, SUndance took forever to ship it and he had to keep contacting them to try to get it in time. When he finally did, a bunch of stuff ended up being back-ordered. Then he had to continually contact them to get that stuff. It was just totally ridiculous. I had the same problem with their "assortment of glass". Nothing labeled, just random crap thrown in. And talk about cheap stuff! They sent the cheapest possible crap they could find.

There are so many better suppliers out there.