What's up w/ Spiral Dance & Splash of Magic

[rverk47]

are they closed, closed for good, coming back..anybody know what's happening..

[Lorraine Chandler]

Hi, I spokewith Susan about a month or two ago and she hasn't any plans to return to the frit business any time soon. A lot happened during her temporarily
closing sale. She told me it made her close without a desire to reopen it as she had originally planned.

I am in the process of duplicating her frit blends..although I asked to buy her recipes she was not ready to sell so she may want to reopen at a later date, but she was sooo not into it when I spoke with her.

If you have favorite frits of hers you are running low on you can send me a sample and I will duplicate it as best I can. I already have dozens of blends in the works.

I do not know about her website business..but her web designs are incredible, just like her frit blends..and just like her.
Lorraine

[squid]

Originally Posted by 2 TOUCANS

Hi, I spokewith Susan about a month or two ago and she hasn't any plans to return to the frit business any time soon. A lot happened during her temporarily
closing sale. She told me it made her close without a desire to reopen it as she had originally planned.

I am in the process of duplicating her frit blends..although I asked to buy her recipes she was not ready to sell so she may want to reopen at a later date, but she was sooo not into it when I spoke with her.

If you have favorite frits of hers you are running low on you can send me a sample and I will duplicate it as best I can. I already have dozens of blends in the works.

I do not know about her website business..but her web designs are incredible, just like her frit blends..and just like her.
Lorraine

There are apparently some people that have still not received frits and website designs that she was already paid for.

http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/sh...t=spiral+dance

http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/sh...t=spiral+dance

[Carolyn M]

Yeh, what a fiasco that was!

[beadgoodies]

Originally Posted by 2 TOUCANS

Hi, I spokewith Susan about a month or two ago and she hasn't any plans to return to the frit business any time soon. A lot happened during her temporarily
closing sale. She told me it made her close without a desire to reopen it as she had originally planned.

I am in the process of duplicating her frit blends..although I asked to buy her recipes she was not ready to sell so she may want to reopen at a later date, but she was sooo not into it when I spoke with her.

If you have favorite frits of hers you are running low on you can send me a sample and I will duplicate it as best I can. I already have dozens of blends in the works.

I do not know about her website business..but her web designs are incredible, just like her frit blends..and just like her.
Lorraine

::sigh:: I just can’t believe that no one has commented on this post yet. I really didn’t want to be the one to comment on this because I’m a frit seller myself and my opinion on this might be seen as biased.

Anyway…

Lorraine, I think that what you’re planning to do – copy Susan’s frit blends and start selling them yourself, is nothing short of stealing. It doesn’t sound at all to me like you got her permission to start selling her blends. Just because she gave you the impression that she’s no longer interested in having a frit store doesn’t give you permission to just take it from her! Several people have expressed interest in *buying* her business and you’re taking that option away from her. Yes, I know, Susan screwed a lot of people, but that doesn’t justify what you plan to do (or are currently doing). I realize that Susan had a lot of really nice blends and it would be nice to have those same blends available for sale once again, but through a more reliable source. Stealing it, however, is NOT okay. I just can’t get over your nonchalance attitude. Do you not realize that it’s generally not okay to take what isn’t yours, or what??

Am I the only one who feels this way??

Candy

[swamper]

Originally Posted by beadgoodies

Am I the only one who feels this way??

Candy

Nope, it occurred to me too.

[evilglass]

I see your perspective on it, but....

A couple of points:

When a business goes under, is it good marketing for another one to step into the missing business' niche? I think yes. There's a demand for the exact product that spiral dance supplied, judging by the WTB and seeking posts in the garage sale area. And many of us will never buy from Spiral Dance again, myself included, after how it went down in the last year or so.

There's also the knock off market thing we've got in the US. Heck, I can go out shopping and buy generics of many over the counter drugs, cereals, perfumes, and who knows what else, LOL. Typically, they have the name brand version actually on the packaging! Is that stealing? If so, it's legal.

I respect your point of view...but disagree with it, overall. Maybe it's an ethics thing. I do know if Spiral Dance were still in business, and I'd gotten my promised frits, I wouldn't feel the way I do about it. As it is, I'd still like to be able to get *those* frits.

Don't get me wrong, I like some of the other blends out there...but I actually put a notebook together of all the frits I wanted to try a while back. Spiral dance outnumbered all the other blends by more than two to one....and I went to a lot of sites looking at them. Plus, I have absolutely no ability to make my own. I've tried and the results bite.

[Peach Blossom Beads]

Candy:
I agree with you. I know there are a lot of people that would like to duplicate Susan's blends and step into her shoes to provide everyone with those gorgeous frits (myself included!). I didn't do it because it just doesn't feel right. It is stealing.

If you want to make your own blends, that's one thing. But to take someone's hard work and trial and error and make it your own without permission is just wrong. Period. Even if they're no longer selling. There are no short-cuts and I think taking a short-cut like this morally & ethically wrong. And who knows if it's illegal? She's been selling them for a while so maybe it is. maybe it isn't? Whether or not it's illegal shouldn't be the deciding factor.

By the way, there are laws for generics, such as drugs, perfumes, etc. Generic drugs can only made after the patent on the original brand has run out (for some reason I'm thinking 17 years, or so? Could be wrong.) As far as perfumes, no one duplicates them exactly, If they did, they would be breaking the law. They're just a little off which is why they're sold.

Now if Lorraine wants to sell very similar frits (not the same exactly), of course she can. But I don't think my conscience would allow me do that. Sorry Lorraine. Just giving my honest opinion.

[JavaGirlBT]

For some reason, in the lampworking world, it's not OK to copy someone's bead, but it is OK to steal someone's frit recipes, or press design, or idea for making glass, etc. It's an irony that I remark and reflect upon from time to time. I really don't get it.

[villa design]

Originally Posted by evilglass

When a business goes under, is it good marketing for another one to step into the missing business' niche? I think yes.

Yes... if they are given permission to duplicate those products or else it can be grounds for a lawsuit... even if the company is out of business.

Also, Knock-offs/generics (drugs, perfumes, cereals) is not a good comparison they have to be formulated differently or tweaked compared to their brand-name counterparts. Again... copyright infringement.

[squid]

Unless the frit blends have been patented - and I sincerely doubt they have - it is not illegal to duplicate them.

Every year the big fashion houses have huge parties and shows to show off their new designs. One month later, those dresses have been copied by companies that specialize in knockoffs.

I'm not going to get into to the is it right or wrong question, but it's not illegal and it happens ALL THE TIME.

[evilglass]

...and if we want to *really* get into ownership of business ideas, then all the frit blend folks stole from val cox and all the press makers from corina.

[FlameFilly]

Look at hot glass tools....does anyone own the rights to making jacks....carpentry does anyone own the rights to the shape of a hammer??? Tools are tools that have been around forever. Frit blends are just that...the person making the blends did not make the colored glass they are using they are using someone else's glass...

[bluhealer]

OCR had frit blends long before Val and the Czechs were using presses before Corina....most ideas probably go back *much* further than we realize...

Originally Posted by evilglass

...and if we want to *really* get into ownership of business ideas, then all the frit blend folks stole from val cox and all the press makers from corina.

[evilglass]

LOL...so...if we want to stretch it...*everyone* is an idea thief!!

I'm cool with that

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by bluhealer

OCR had frit blends long before Val and the Czechs were using presses before Corina....most ideas probably go back *much* further than we realize...

I have presses from the 50s - so unless Corina has aged really well - they go back at least that far before her glassworking carreer - not nearly as user friendly then though!

[DesertDreamer]

Hehe, there are Roman beads at the Bead Museum in Glendale with multi-colored frit. THERE is a copyright challenge!

[rverk47]

i just love the frit and i hope spiral dance reopens or she sells to somebody who will turn it into a bigger better company..in this economy i can't imagine having a successful business and not wanting to work it and make it even better..not to mention making money off it..i always had good customer service from spiral dance and don't know what happened to the several that had problems..i can't believe she just wanted to cheat people - there has to be another side to the story..maybe she was going through a personal crisis or something..i hope that it all gets resolved because she is quite talented at making beautiful frit..

[lunamoonshadow]

Originally Posted by beadgoodies

::sigh:: I just can’t believe that no one has commented on this post yet. I really didn’t want to be the one to comment on this because I’m a frit seller myself and my opinion on this might be seen as biased.

Anyway…

Lorraine, I think that what you’re planning to do – copy Susan’s frit blends and start selling them yourself, is nothing short of stealing. It doesn’t sound at all to me like you got her permission to start selling her blends. Just because she gave you the impression that she’s no longer interested in having a frit store doesn’t give you permission to just take it from her! Several people have expressed interest in *buying* her business and you’re taking that option away from her. Yes, I know, Susan screwed a lot of people, but that doesn’t justify what you plan to do (or are currently doing). I realize that Susan had a lot of really nice blends and it would be nice to have those same blends available for sale once again, but through a more reliable source. Stealing it, however, is NOT okay. I just can’t get over your nonchalance attitude. Do you not realize that it’s generally not okay to take what isn’t yours, or what??

Am I the only one who feels this way??

Candy

Candy, I think most of us were simply stunned that anyone would ADMIT that was what they were doing on the open forum. I mean, if that's what you're doing, uh, well, great. Figure them out, put them up for sale (with differerent names for heaven's sake!) & if people buy, so be it. But to advertise you've "copied", well, that's just plain stupid in my mind! Not a wise business decision!

Originally Posted by bluhealer

OCR had frit blends long before Val and the Czechs were using presses before Corina....most ideas probably go back *much* further than we realize...

Seems to me I remember a sweet frit maker who went by your name who stopped making frit & was incredibly nice enough to POST their best frit recipies on Wet Canvas for EVERYONE in the glass world to share....seems to me half the frit DEALERS out there now SELL those same recipies as premixed blends, and only a couple even give credit to Bluhealer by putting that in the name of those frit blends that they're profiting off of....


Evilglass--have you tried some of Candy's blends?? She's got FABULOUS prices (and she's got great sampler baggie sets too!) & her frits work terrific on a hothead (as well as on a "big girl torch") which is a huge plus for me & why I had a thing for Spiral Dance frits --She also ships amazingly fast & she's got some TERRIFIC color blends!
(and then of course there's the bazillion blends I still need to try of Gail's @ www.ggglass.com & all the ones I've got of Robin's from glass diversions (love celestial! & all the pink blends!) & my Val Cox sampler (cherry blossom is my fav there!) ok, I'm a frit FREAK...I have color samples I've never melted...how pathetic is that?)

[Abacus Beads]

over 90% of the frit blends on my shelf are from Spiral Dance. I never, never, had a problem of not getting my order. I also have a web design made by Splash of Magic. I love it and again I never had a problem with getting the design I wanted. I'm sooooo sorry that the business has closed down.
Liz R

[Listenup]

>> Seems to me I remember a sweet frit maker who went by your name who stopped making frit & was incredibly nice enough to POST their best frit recipies on Wet Canvas for EVERYONE in the glass world to share<<

I was thinking the same thing. I have all of them and even one she didn't post the recipe for. I was also going to say Hi Bluhealer. It's great to see you again!

>> ....seems to me half the frit DEALERS out there now SELL those same recipies as premixed blends, and only a couple even give credit to Bluhealer by putting that in the name of those frit blends that they're profiting off of.... <<

Yep - but even more of them copy off of Val. I have lost count of how many blends I've found that I believe are "Ocelot Spots" knockoffs.

>> I had a thing for Spiral Dance frits <<

I have a drawer full of samples of her blends (due to the frit exchange) and I'm so on the wall as to whether I should include them or even bother testing them or not.

>>I have color samples I've never melted...how pathetic is that?<<

Not! I so resemble that remark and if anybody answers in the affirmative, I would challenge them to melt and test as many as I have.

So many frits, so little time.

[lunamoonshadow]

Yeah, but you're doin' a PROJECT Kay! (and such a valuable project it is, too! It gives me yet another reason to "neeeed" all the frits...because I saw them on your sample pages and "know they work on a hothead" )

[Listenup]

Yeah, I know - but what I REALLY want to know is if folks want me to test them or not. I have samples of 57 colors and that's a lot of time and base glass if nobody wants them. Maybe when I get more time I'll put up a survey. What ya think Lyn?

Keep warm

[chrisdd]

Kay, please don't test the SD frits. I'm already bummed out that I can't get any more of my favorites. Seeing what I missed out on will make me whine.

[Listenup]

Here is my line of thinking with this. I personally don't want to test these because I don't care for the way they did some people wrong. BUT, there are a whole bunch of their frits out there and they are making the rounds from person to person, bit by bit so perhaps I should buy the glass to do the tests with them and just do it. I guess I'll just decide when I'm out of everything else to test. I have in all of the Gaffer colors and blends I didn't have, as well as the Reichenbach, Bullseye, and all but a handful of the Zimmerman ones.

[lunamoonshadow]

I'd vote for "test them after you run out of every other frit to test"....if at all & if no one has bought the recipies by then....
I'm in the frustrated category for a couple reasons on that one!
~lyn

[babyblucat]

It is sad to see Spiral Dance close its doors, Susan really does have a lot of very nice frit blends and I personally have spent hundreds of dollars on them. But currently I am extremely disappointed in her lack of professionalism and honor. She has taken orders and HAS ACCEPTED PAYMENT from long standing customers (like ME) and has not sent the products.....ignores emails as well.
Personal conflicts aside, if you take someone's money you should follow through and send the products paid for...or return their money.

Maybe people are upset that her recipes may be copied ----an attempt doesn't automatically equal success----whether attempting a copy may or may not be STEALING----taking people's money under false pretenses is MOST DEFINITELY STEALING. And that is what Susan is doing.

She always seemed like a very nice person to me. It is sad to see that perhaps she is not very nice at all.

[jaci]

well If I can't buy the frit I need because it is not being made any more than I think I would try and duplicate it too. (not for commercial use, but for personal use.)

this is kinda like a recipes... who has the best apple pie you ever had? Have you ever tried to make it not having the recipe? YOu know how to make apple pie, so you tweek it until it is right. A good chef can re-create almost any dish they really try to without a recipe or even a list of ingredients. What is so different here? We know how to make frit... we just have to tweek the recipe... not as easy as it sounds, but a rewarding effort.

[Kalera]

Although I appreciate the creativity that goes into making up frit recipes, I do also marvel at the willingness of people to pay $13 for $2 worth of frit... many times, especially when OCR is having a sale, you could buy 1/2 kilos of single colors for $13 each, and blend your own, giving you unique frit beads that are truly your own.

[Nolly]

I tried that "buy frit from OCR and make your own blends" plan ... and now I have kilos of frit all around my basement! Some of it's even measured into jars and labeled.

If anyone wants to try blending frit on a small scale, I'll make up a color list for you! $6 for 3.5 ounces and you pay the postage. That's $2 off my former sales price (whenever I had the gumption to sell some).

Frankly, my favorite way to use frit is to put a little of this and a little of that on a flat, fireproof surface (like a tile) and mix it in the middle. Some good things come out of it.

Nolly