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  #1  
Old 2016-07-08, 11:05am
Vai Vai is offline
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Join Date: Aug 24, 2011
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Unhappy supplemental oxygen tank

I just purchased a Bethlehem Bravo torch and am looking forward to hooking it up. I've been using a lynx with propane and an OG-20 concentrator. Seems I need more oxygen output than what my concentrator puts out in order to use the outer flame of the torch. I was told I need an additional oxygen storage tank, with a foot pedal. Does anyone know about or have a similar set up and can recommend what my next step should be. I'm totally clueless as to where I should puchase a tank and how to attach it. After purchasing the torch, and stocking up on Spectrum glass, I don't have much cash to cough up anything expensive, like another oxygen concentrator. Any and all suggestions would be greatly appreciated!!
Vai
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  #2  
Old 2016-07-08, 10:14pm
De Anza Art Glass Club De Anza Art Glass Club is offline
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Sorry you haven't gotten a reply yet. I'm not the best person to answer since I haven't hooked up my holding tank yet and am still using tanked oxygen.

The holding tank is commonly used name for the additional oxygen storage tank. The foot pedal makes the process of using the outer flame more efficient and is not absolutely necessary. You can try without the foot pedal and just opening the valves for the outer flame when you need it. If the concentrator and holding tank system can't keep up with the way you use your burner, then you might try adding the foot pedal.

There was a tutorial for making a holding tank, but unfortunately it is no longer available. The thread for it is here < http://lampworketc.com/forums/showth...t=holding+tank > in case the comments are helpful. There is another thread with a cost estimate here < http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=221464 >.

Basically, as I remember, the tutorial said this: The holding tank has a connection like that for inflating a car or bicycle tire. It said to remove the internals of the valve so that you don't have to press the stem to get air in an out, and then connect a tee fitting. One end of the tee has a barb fitting to connect to the oxygen concentrator. The middle fitting of the tee screws onto the tank connection. The other end of the tee has a barb fitting to connect to the hose for your burner.

Personally, I wouldn't have done it like that and would have tried to unscrew the connection from the tank and use a threaded coupling to replace the valve and thread a tee onto that, but I can't say whether or not that will work because my holding tank is still in the box.

I think the best thing is to get the holding tank set up, and then if you need help with the foot pedal, then we'll address that at a later time.
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  #3  
Old 2016-07-10, 7:37am
Vai Vai is offline
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Thanks for the info. Unfortunately, I'm more confused than ever. What type of holding tank do you have, and if I may ask, was it terribly expensive, also where would be a good place to start looking for one? I've looked at air compressors, but they are quite costly. Perhaps I should look into an additional oxycon(used, of course) which might work together with my OG-20? Do you think that would give me sufficient liters of oxygen per hour to run the outer flame on my Bravo? I have to admit that life was a lot easier with my Lynx!
Vai

Last edited by Vai; 2016-07-10 at 7:39am. Reason: misspelled word
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  #4  
Old 2016-07-10, 7:47am
dusty dusty is offline
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The easiest and cheapest (initially, at least) solution would be to rent a high pressure tank from a welding shop and hook it up to your outer flame. I found that when I was running like this, a tank would last a long time - usually 2 weeks or more.

A holding tank won't do much good without a compressor, unless, maybe, you regulate your pressure down to 7psi or so after the tank. Even then, I don't think it'd do much good.

A holding tank with a compressor can be a great solution, and you could get that set up for between $500 and $1000, if you're handy or know somebody who is.

A second (and third) compressor in addition to a holding tank might get you there, too.
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  #5  
Old 2016-07-10, 1:31pm
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Speedslug Speedslug is offline
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Please keep in mind that although oxygen it self does not actually burn it can and does cause some things that do burn ( like lubricating oil in a garage type air compressor,) to spontaneously burst in to flame especially under pressure and often that can lead to explosions that will take out all 4 walls of a house in an instant.


All of that to say don't use a tank from an old garage air compressor without doing some serious research on how to clean it and also don't use a compressor that is not designed specifically for oxygen.

End of PSA.


I have an analogy about the holding tank versus the welding tanks.

When bagpipe players fill the air bag under their arms by blowing in to them that is kind of like the holding tank that some people use.
They have an oxygen concentrator that can only produce some 20 pounds of pressure at most and feed that into a really large volume tank like a (thoroughly cleaned) garage air compressor tank (minus the compressor motor).
That tank acts like the air bag under the bag pipe players arm and can provide a goodly amount of extra when you just need a burst for a minute or three.
Medium sized volume at low pressure.
Great for short bursts on big torches but can be used up in short order unless you are stingy with it.


The welding tanks hold a huge volume amount of oxygen but it is compressed to something close to 2100 pounds.
You can get a machine to refill these kinds of tanks at home (search for the words "homefil II") using an oxygen concentrator but it takes a good day or three to refill one and you have to hunt up the parts to connect one to the large welding tanks that will give you enough volume to be worth the effort.
These homefil II systems can run some $600 to $1000 depending on how long you can wait to find used ones or buying new.
And then you still have to buy a high pressure tank at yet another $300 each on a good day.
The second thousand pounds of pressure takes two thirds to three quarters of the effort and time so folks that do this home set up often set up two tanks to be filled at half pressure and that gives them just as much volume as one at higher pressure with a lot less effort and energy dollars.
The nice thing about high pressure tanks is that you can use one pretty much all week long anyway you want and just create huge glass with outrageous flames.

Also high pressure tanks are used all over the place in industry and are often just rented full and swapped out when empty but some towns limit whether the tanks can be stored or delivered to homes and some companies will not deliver them and they can be really really heavy and awkward to move around by yourself.

Also, home oxygen concentrators only produce oxygen at some 94 to 96 % purity while the welding tanks can be found easily at 99% purity or better and if you are working really hot and really large that extra % can make a difference to some.
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  #6  
Old 2016-07-10, 1:37pm
De Anza Art Glass Club De Anza Art Glass Club is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vai View Post
Thanks for the info. What type of holding tank do you have, and if I may ask, was it terribly expensive, also where would be a good place to start looking for one?
I haven't done this in a while. Please refer to the second link in my previous post which I identify as "cost estimate".

The best places might be online at Amazon if you have free shipping, Harbor Freight, or a hardware/home improvement store.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vai View Post
I've looked at air compressors, but they are quite costly. Perhaps I should look into an additional oxycon(used, of course) which might work together with my OG-20? Do you think that would give me sufficient liters of oxygen per hour to run the outer flame on my Bravo?
Vai
Here is an estimate for the total use of the Bravo. I assume the outer flame of the Bravo would equal the total use minus the use for the Alpha. (I don't remember where I got this chart right now.)

OK, I hope you can read this because I can't put it in chart form without uploading an image, and I think the original document is too big. (Spaces and tabs are automatically removed.)
Note: I have left off everything for the Lynx except for the LPM.
Note 2: The numbers provided by the oxygen concentrators do not add up to the maximum value consumed by the burner, but the title of the chart does say that the "Yes/No" refers to "Full flame capabilities with no flame distortion".
Note 3: Chart might have been courtesy of Artistry in Glass.

BURNER | Alpha | Bravo | Lynx
LPM REQUIRED(LITERS PER MINUTE) | 12 | 31 | 7
EX 5 5 lpm @ 7 psi | No | No
EX 10 5 lpm @ 10 psi No | No
EX 15 8 lpm @ 15 psi | Yes? (66%) | Yes (2 units)
H1 15 lpm @ 20 psi | Yes | Yes (2 units)
REGALIA 10 lpm @ 7 psi | Yes (90%) | Yes (2 units)
OGSI 15 7 lpm @ 12 psi | Yes (60%) | Yes (2 units)
OGSI 20 10 lpm @ 15 psi | Yes | Yes (2 units)

I believe the problem you will have is matching the pressure output of the OG-20, but as I remember, that is not a big problem because the outlet pressure of the OG-15 and OG-20 are adjustable.

I don't believe the compressor is absolutely necessary for intermittent use. However, I am speaking about short, intermittent use using soft glass. It is an additional expense, so I think you could use a step-by-step approach and see what works for your situation.

For the time, expense, and effort for the holding tank (unless you know someone who is comfortable with the work), I think the best thing is to look for an additional, used oxygen concentrator (unless you take the rented oxygen cylinder route). If you are judging by the price of a new or used OGSI unit, the repurposed medical oxygen concentrators can be found for much less, especially if you are patient.

Also, I might add that if you have a local beadmaking club / ISGB chapter, you might find some help there. If you feel comfortable sharing your general location, someone may contact you.

Last edited by De Anza Art Glass Club; 2016-07-10 at 1:47pm.
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  #7  
Old 2016-07-10, 6:37pm
Vai Vai is offline
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Thanks everyone for all of your input! I'll research all of your suggestions and we'll see what happens. I can't wait to start using my new torch. (Safely, of course)
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