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Tips, Techniques, and Questions -- Technical questions or tips

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  #91  
Old 2008-05-31, 12:18pm
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I haven't kept up with this thread but wanted to add that I, too, appreciate the information Kimberly posted. I do view her as a very honest, reliable and objective source, just from the interaction I have had with her.

I for one am glad this info was made available. I wish it was available when I was purchasing my concentrator.
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  #92  
Old 2008-05-31, 6:36pm
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Awesome info from all.

Kim you've gone above and beyond and I'm sure everyone thanks you for it. I bet many will be in line to see just what is what on their current setup. Most of the negative in this thread has not a thing to do with us ... it's the people that sell the machines and the behind the curtain things going on within their world, not ours. When ever someone touches the pocket, people burst period. I really don't think that is what Kim was even touching. If you've only worked on a hothead and get any concentrator working 1/2 ass, you'll love it ... if you've only worked on tanked and go to a concentrator I'm sure you would see the difference too. We've heard from many people who make money off these units and having some hard, believable information is what the end result will be so we ALL win! I've talked to many people myself ... the OGSI guy, forget his name but found his info on WC ... to Invacare's builders and to the local medical supplier down here ... they all say the same thing about the UO machines ... it's like putting a turbo on a 4cyl ... works great but dies fast. I didn't say that so don't look at me but from what I've heard concentrators are only designed to do one thing and that is in the spec sheet for everyone to read for their machine. Did Jack make a new machine? Can someone get inside and see the parts being used and from that look at the specs? Did Jack create something that is secret and works? I've no clue, but making our living at glass its really not a "weak" subject or a tiny thing. It's huge! Larry and Justine have never backed down, Kim's never backed down, Jack doesn't seem to back down so getting the info to lampworkers is VERY important imho. I can't wait to see the results because I'm in the market and from everything I've read the best setup for me is ... phantom ... on tanked for outer and Regalia for inner but I'm all ears when it comes to facts and testing.

Thanks again to all of you oxygen people, I for one really do want to know whats what.
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  #93  
Old 2008-05-31, 8:22pm
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Very Interesting thread I just spent the past hour reading all pages and posts. I just have a couple of things to say about my M-15 that I got 6 weeks ago. I have been running the inner fire of my mirage with it about 6 hours a day 5 days week. It took a while to get here but it was well worth the wait because well "IT ROCKS" and it "RUNS REAL NICE" sorry i could not resist throwing that in. Smile people life is too short for all this stress.
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  #94  
Old 2008-06-01, 8:08am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dan13 View Post
Very Interesting thread I just spent the past hour reading all pages and posts. I just have a couple of things to say about my M-15 that I got 6 weeks ago. I have been running the inner fire of my mirage with it about 6 hours a day 5 days week. It took a while to get here but it was well worth the wait because well "IT ROCKS" and it "RUNS REAL NICE" sorry i could not resist throwing that in. Smile people life is too short for all this stress.
I think comments from users are more valid and carry greater weight than those from sellers.
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  #95  
Old 2008-06-01, 8:27am
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Dan13, awesome beads on Ebay ... you sure know how to kick that boro color.
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  #96  
Old 2008-06-01, 9:20am
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Originally Posted by Dennis Brady View Post
I think comments from users are more valid and carry greater weight than those from sellers.
I think raw data gathered by using the scientific method are more valid than subjective opinion. And, that is why I am sending my analyzer out to other users so that they can check out the health of their own machines and report findings that have more meaning than their subjective opinion, alone.

I don't make the oxygen analyzers and I do not make the concentrators that are being tested. I am also not going to be the only one testing.

I read the auto manufacturer analogy on this forum and others. It is not a correct analogy. I am not a manufacturer. I am neither GM nor Ford. I am a dealership free to carry whatever car I want. I even have a certified pre-owned lot, LOL. Well, even that is not entirely accurate, since I do not carry inventory. I do not buy a number of machines and then have to move them through, like you do. As someone who carries an inventory of UO machines, it would appear, Dennis, that you are even more biased than you claim me to be.
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  #97  
Old 2008-06-01, 9:44am
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Originally Posted by dan13 View Post
Very Interesting thread I just spent the past hour reading all pages and posts. I just have a couple of things to say about my M-15 that I got 6 weeks ago. I have been running the inner fire of my mirage with it about 6 hours a day 5 days week. It took a while to get here but it was well worth the wait because well "IT ROCKS" and it "RUNS REAL NICE" sorry i could not resist throwing that in. Smile people life is too short for all this stress.
I can appreciate your enthusiasm over a machine that is working for you. That's fine and no one is saying that your machine does not work for you or live up to your expectations.

I can also appreciate your wanting to lighten things up. But, I think the real stress comes in when someone who who makes their living from glasswork is in full production mode and their expensive piece of equipment dies on them and leaves them in the lurch. The stress also comes when someone forgoes a lot of things (from vacations to groceries) to scrimp and save for a piece of equipment only to find that once they get it, it does not perform as promised. When getting tanked oxygen is cost prohibitive or impossible due to logistics and you rely on your equipment, well, for it to die or not perform as it was supposed to, is more than an inconvenience. It hurts. That's where the stress comes in, not from discussing the numbers.
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  #98  
Old 2008-06-01, 11:15am
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As someone who carries an inventory of UO machines, it would appear, Dennis, that you are even more biased than you claim me to be.
An important difference is I make no claim to be unbaised. I am totally biased. It's not by accident that I'm selling UO machines. It's a choice I made by intentional design after talking personally to dozens of artisans, wholesalers, and manufacturers. I sell UO machines because, after careful research and evaluation, I concluded they are the best bang for the buck machine available on the market today. I don't promote them because I sell them. I sell them because I believe they're worth being promoted. I sell them because they are suitable either for hobbyists that use them for fun or for professional artisans that use them to create their family income.

You bet I'm biased - and damned proud of it. If you examine the variety of companies Victorian Art Glass distributes products from, you'll see there are many we have every right to be proudly biased to be handling. I built this company by chosing the best suppliers and proudly promoting their products. If I'm not biased about a supplier, I won't be selling their products. Stay tuned for many more such fine companies to be added to the list I will promote in totally biased belief. Son Jason does all the company web work and is a bit behind on updates, but there are several new suppliers we are enormously proud to be adding to our website. We have some great promo offers now on ABC and will be offering more every month or so.
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  #99  
Old 2008-06-01, 11:29am
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Why is it that the UO crowd is the only group objecting to me sending out my oxygen analyzer and putting together a database and the only group to come on an advertise themselves every chance they get?
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  #100  
Old 2008-06-01, 11:39am
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Hey Dan13, glad you like your oxycon. Maybe you can check in 6 months from now and let us know how it's going, and then around the 3 year mark.

Mr.S, what I'm not understanding is that there are 3 or 4 folks, myself included that have had consistent, chronic problems with the UO concentrators, and you seem to want to breeze right by that.

Look, Jack says he's going to once again swap out my machine and I'm very thankful for that, but aren't you guys interested in why this happens? It seems like it would do us all good to recognize that there might be a common problem, and work on identifying the cause, then fix it if possible.

I've heard from Jack about swapping out the machine, but I've not heard from anybody about why this keeps happening. Anybody got any theories?

I'd also be interested to know how long some of these machines have been used by a given lampworker. Mr.S mentions he's had his 2 for 2.5 years; Dan13 for about 6 weeks. I had my Alliance for 5 years, my M10 for about 2.5 years, and the M15 for about 5 months.

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  #101  
Old 2008-06-01, 12:22pm
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Kimberly,
Part of the problem I have with your testing is the units you chose to test. You tested what you considered well working Regalia, Integra10, and Invacare machine and posted the results. You then took an OU M-20 that you knew was not functioning up to specs and singled it out as the only failing machine. You knew this faulty machine was going to fail the test to begin with. You further single out this machine by posting only photos of it failing not of the others passing. You seem to single it out with prejudice. I know you state it was a bad machine to begin with but given that why even test it. It appears as though you wanted to single out this company and it makes you results appear biased. It seems to me that for your tests to be unbiased then you should be testing and comparing only machines that are considered to be in working order. If you could not find an OU machine to test in a fair comparison then it should have been left out of the testing until you had access to one.
That being said, I am an owner of 2 M-20 Oxygen Unlimited machines. I am a professional lampworker and see anywhere from 30-70 hour a week on the torch. I have been using these machines for 2.5 years. I work them hard and am very pleased with the output and purity. My Quad Barracuda sings on them. Many students question me about which generator I use and I happily recommend Oxygen Unlimited machines to them. I think they are the best bang for the buck. Where else am I going to get 18 psi and 18 lpms for under $1500?
I have just recently had one of the machines begin to fail. I have all confidence that Jack will take care of this problem as soon as I contact him with the issue. I will give a report of the Oxygen Unlimited customer service after we resolve this issue. I really can’t comment on it as I have had no issues with the machines until know.
My intent here is not to inflame the situation, just to point out what I feel are unfair comparisons and to perhaps give you a sense of why some of the OU people have there hackles up. I would be happy to test my good machine and when the issue is resolved on the failing unit test it as well. Just send me the testing unit. I would be happy to know exactly how they perform.

Peace,
Trey
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  #102  
Old 2008-06-01, 12:29pm
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So Trey, can you tell if it's the purity part of the machine that's starting to fail or some other aspect?

I also find the 2.5-year timeframe consistent with the M10 that I had.

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Patti
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  #103  
Old 2008-06-01, 12:47pm
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It seems to be a pressure issue. With the two machines hooked together I am getting much lower output from the failing one. As for purity I cannot tell as I have no way to test the O2 level. I am still able to work on my torch just with smaller flame than before so I do not think it is a purity issue.I will know more after I call Jack and get it into the shop.
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  #104  
Old 2008-06-01, 2:13pm
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Why is it that the UO crowd is the only group objecting to me sending out my oxygen analyzer and putting together a database and the only group to come on an advertise themselves every chance they get?
I wouldn't presume to speak for the "crowd" but my personal feeling is that I think your comparison would have been better received had it been unaccompanied by direct and specific negative comments about UO. My impressions from your postings (here and on all the other boards you've posted about your proposed comparison) is that your references will consistently favour the machines you sell and therefore will, and should be, viewed with some skepticism. It's like Ford posting a database comparing vehicle performance. Personally, I'd be interested in reading a comparison done by the auto club - but I'd never trust one done by any manufacturer or one of their dealers. Especially if the comparison started by denigrating GM.

The only group to advertise? I recall seeing your ads here? Was it just my imagination?
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  #105  
Old 2008-06-01, 4:05pm
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Kim keep your eyes straight and the horse blinders on tight .. your findings are awaited by many I'm sure and even better will be our peers that use your machine and tell us their results. Good or bad it will all come out in the wash. Your doing a very good thing here so no more getting pulled into "beefs" you don't need to comment on. A database full of findings will be the end result and I for one can't wait to see it quickly I hope. I'm about to do all sort of upgrading to my equipement and will base my future buying on all this. Straight and steady my friend, straight and steady!
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  #106  
Old 2008-06-01, 4:36pm
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I wouldn't presume to speak for the "crowd" but my personal feeling is that I think your comparison would have been better received had it been unaccompanied by direct and specific negative comments about UO.
I don't think so, Dennis. If I had simply posted the raw numbers, I still would have caught flack. It would have been a problem for some because that machine is no longer in production. To which I would have explained that those units are still in use, are used to sell the current model, and are themselves still being bought and sold in the after-market.

Then, the authenticity of my results would have been questioned. I provided photographic evidence of my findings. And then, the accuracy of my analyzer and my testing methods would have been questioned. I have already been accused of being new at this testing thing, so my results are questionable.

It would then go back to someone saying that I have no business posting anything about those machines because I sell something else, ignoring the part about me offering my analyzer for other people to test their machines so the results would not be from just me.

It would go on and on, regardless of any commentary. I included my commentary because a lot of people question why I do not sell those units and that commentary included my observation that there are other people with different experiences than me.

No, Dennis, it would not have mattered what I posted, I still would have faced trouble from the UO crowd.

Quote:
My impressions from your postings (here and on all the other boards you've posted about your proposed comparison) is that your references will consistently favour the machines you sell and therefore will, and should be, viewed with some skepticism.
Why do you think I prefer the machines that I do? I preferred them before I ever sold them. Why would my opinion of them change? Go back and read some of my older posts from before September 2006.

Quote:
It's like Ford posting a database comparing vehicle performance. Personally, I'd be interested in reading a comparison done by the auto club - but I'd never trust one done by any manufacturer or one of their dealers. Especially if the comparison started by denigrating GM.
My presentation of what I found so far was not meant to trash anyone. It was just put out there to explain my opinion and it was qualified by stating that I know that there are other people whose machines have worked well for them.

Until me, there has been no one else in this industry to propose such a database.

Quote:
The only group to advertise? I recall seeing your ads here? Was it just my imagination?
I advertise on several forums. That's not the point I was making.







As for my editorial that was added, if you read it all, it clearly states that I am aware that there are people with good experiences with those machines. I see a people selling them, but none of those people are saying up front that they are aware of some serious problems out there. Quite the contrary. Reluctantly, some will say that there were problems with the old units, but not the new ones, etc., etc.

My database project is not aimed at any one company. I just want to see how all the machines out there are performing in the field. My negative opinion is based on the six units that GTT tested, the big machine that Willy and I ran at the KC Gathering, and the numerous reports I have read from other people. And keep in mind that when I formed this opinion, I was not a dealer of any concentrator.





I just want to find out what is really out there. Am I just one of a few unlucky people in regards to that M-20? But, beyond the whole UO thing, I want to know what is the typical performance to be expected from a concentrator. Are the Regalia, Integra10, and Invacare that I have just flukes? When a company claims that something puts out something, does it really do that? That is why I want real numbers and not just subjective opinions. Why are you so against the real numbers that I am gathering? Why would I report false findings that anyone with access to a properly calibrated analyzer could disprove? You don't have to answer that.
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  #107  
Old 2008-06-01, 4:53pm
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Originally Posted by Blueflameart View Post
Kim keep your eyes straight and the horse blinders on tight .. your findings are awaited by many I'm sure and even better will be our peers that use your machine and tell us their results. Good or bad it will all come out in the wash. Your doing a very good thing here so no more getting pulled into "beefs" you don't need to comment on. A database full of findings will be the end result and I for one can't wait to see it quickly I hope. I'm about to do all sort of upgrading to my equipement and will base my future buying on all this. Straight and steady my friend, straight and steady!
Thanks, Chad.
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  #108  
Old 2008-06-01, 6:06pm
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well Kim should have test all three UO machine given that they where the replacement units from GTT's original order. three bad machines where replaced with surely three machines that the manufactures tested before sending out. they are test as stated right? well wait, when is testing ok,when one arrives in working order or when one arrives? be fairly pointless to run a test on a machine that checks out ok, if it takes sending back five bad ones to get one good one. the test applies to the machine that arrives. period. nor do we want any rep there pulling off the sides or adjusting this or that. I am not service tech nor should I need to know any thing more than plug and play when purchasing a unit.
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  #109  
Old 2008-06-02, 6:06am
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as I do not have any of the machines being tested, most of this thread is purely academic for me, I have an OGSI 20 have any tests been done with this machine? Whew, it's very hard to get peoples attention on this thread.
B
I know how you feel! I have a machine that no one else has, and I mean, no one! I bought it 4 years ago before all these other generators came out. (Airsep AS-12A high pressure) Fortunately for you, several people on this forum have your machine, so you should get some answers when questions come up.

I contacted the person who I bought mine from a year ago (works for BTES) and I think he was just trying to sell me another unit! Heck, at over $2000 again??! I paid $2400 for mine plus a small holding tank. I told him I wanted to move up from the Bobcat to the Lynx, and he said I needed 2 of my units to run it. BULLS***!! I'm not stupid enough to believe that! I mean, at 15-18psi and 15lpm, c'mon! I know that won't run a Phantom's outer fire, but I still wonder if all this is enough "juice" to run a Cheetah, or maybe a Barracuda? I know for a fact it's overkill for the Bobcat. I get funky flames when I got too much oxy going, and have to turn it down often. No problem with boro, it's pretty hot.

I also have a 5lpm concentrator (Invacare) that a nurse friend gave me. It is much "gentler" than my Airsep, and every other day I use it just to keep them both running and to counteract the effects of this humid climate I live in. On the humidity and performance, so far no problems with either.
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  #110  
Old 2008-06-02, 6:16am
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I think they are the best bang for the buck. Where else am I going to get 18 psi and 18 lpms for under $1500?
Trey, wow, I wish I would have been smart to buy just a $350 refurbished 5lpm machine about 4 years back, and then waited a couple of years! I could have saved around $1000 or so. For what I've paid for mine, I could have a machine that has near twice the output that it does.

I'm not complaining about the Airsep really, only the price. (ouch! it still hurts!) It's a very good machine, running full time torching hours for 4 years now. I haven't had to do anything to it but wash the little foam filter. I live in a terribly humid climate, and still it runs like a champ.
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  #111  
Old 2008-06-02, 8:12am
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I was wondering how long it would take you to start questioning the testing methods and say something like I did not know what I was doing.

Let me assure you, I know how to operate the analyzer. It is a very simple process - simple enough for anyone I would send the machine out to to understand and do. By saying that you are having a hard time believing my results because I am "new" at this, you are planting the seed of doubt that anyone else who would use the meter to test their machine (also "new" to this) could be in error and that their readings should be questioned. It sure sounds like you are trying to cover your bases for any future test results. What the heck are you so afraid of?

Why is it that only the UO crowd is questioning my results and the whole project, in general? I don't see anyone from AirSep or OGSI in here saying that I'm new at testing, so my results are questionable. EDIT: over on WC, my main competitor in the 5 LPM market is not only not questioning my results, he is confirming them!

And Brent, Jack may have tested something when it left his bench, but that does not mean that it is performing like that after being used for any length of time. Like I said earlier, I have received lots of reports of machines working fine (as far as they knew) for a while and then declining. Part of the project is to investigate that - not just for UO units, btw, but for all units out there.
First of all, I was not questioning your ability to run an analyzer. I'm questioning this whole thing. I don't see how you could have possibly had this bad of luck. Because it IS bad luck, if your statements are in fact honest results. From my perspective, I've seen so many of these working as they should to be able to understand your experience. I've seen what mine do and I've sold hundreds of units. I don't see my rear end all chewed up, which is exactly what would happen if I'd sold hundreds of bad units to this community.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbinkster View Post
Brent, I have already posted that information all over this site and others. I'll post it again on the data thread I am preparing.

Edit: Oh, but since you earlier discussed how the Hurricane was not powerful enough to run the Phantom without a booster... that may be true. It all depends on what you want to do with the torch. Last night, I was making soft glass beads using my Phantom on a single Regalia (putting out ~8 LPM at my altitude). For what I was doing that required the outfire (getting a long soft glass bead hot enough to press), it was just what I needed. Obviously, working hotter would require more.

UO claims that the Hurricane puts out 15 LPM at 20 psi. The Phantom needs between 35-40 cfh (16.5 - 18.9 LPM) to get its maximum usable flame. The pressure requirements are 15-20 psi.


Oh, and do you have an answer to the question I asked you, earlier? What did you mean when you said that you had to re-educate some people about what was possible on a concentrator? Were they expecting something and the machine not live up to it? What were they expecting? That's the problem with the subjective claims out there - they inevitably lead to disappointment.
I meant that there has been confusion about what concentrators in general will do... and some specific the ones I sell. I have to tell people what these can really do, because when lampworkers talk to other lampworkers about this stuff, they don't always get the info correct. They heard this or that and I set them straight, before I sell them a unit.

Oh and when you post the specs for the GTT line up, I want the requirements for 100%. Raging hot full tilt GTT flame.
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  #112  
Old 2008-06-02, 8:35am
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Why is it that the UO crowd is the only group objecting to me sending out my oxygen analyzer and putting together a database and the only group to come on an advertise themselves every chance they get?
I guess I'm one of the UO "crowd" and I don't care if you send out the analyzer to test these machines. I think having a data base is a great idea. I haven't seen anybody say it was a bad idea on either side. So, where are you getting the info to make inflammatory statements like this?
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  #113  
Old 2008-06-02, 1:37pm
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Trey, I didn’t mean to overlook your thoughtful post. I started to answer it earlier, but got sidetracked.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trey Cornette View Post
Kimberly,
Part of the problem I have with your testing is the units you chose to test. You tested what you considered well working Regalia, Integra10, and Invacare machine and posted the results. You then took an OU M-20 that you knew was not functioning up to specs and singled it out as the only failing machine. You knew this faulty machine was going to fail the test to begin with. You further single out this machine by posting only photos of it failing not of the others passing. You seem to single it out with prejudice. I know you state it was a bad machine to begin with but given that why even test it. It appears as though you wanted to single out this company and it makes you results appear biased. It seems to me that for your tests to be unbiased then you should be testing and comparing only machines that are considered to be in working order. If you could not find an OU machine to test in a fair comparison then it should have been left out of the testing until you had access to one.
I tested the machines I have on hand, All of them are performing in the same manner that they did when they were delivered to me. One of them was even a replacement unit for another that was faulty, so you would think that that would be as good as it gets, wouldn’t you? They are all four units that people are using out in the field and are all available, if not in the new market, then on the aftermarket.

I knew that the M-20 I had did not perform to my standards, but I did not know that it was below the specs stated by UO until after I tested it. How could I have known the oxygen concentration and true pressure output without testing? GTT was going by faith that these machines put out what SCC/UO said they were when they bought them.

I took pictures of the results of the M-20 because even I was surprised at how low the purity concentration was and knew that someone, like Brent, would have a hard time believing the results. Hey, even after seeing the photographic evidence, he still said that he had a hard time believing my results. I will be happy to re-test the units and take pictures of all of them, if you would like.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trey Cornette View Post
That being said, I am an owner of 2 M-20 Oxygen Unlimited machines. I am a professional lampworker and see anywhere from 30-70 hour a week on the torch. I have been using these machines for 2.5 years. I work them hard and am very pleased with the output and purity. My Quad Barracuda sings on them. Many students question me about which generator I use and I happily recommend Oxygen Unlimited machines to them. I think they are the best bang for the buck. Where else am I going to get 18 psi and 18 lpms for under $1500?
I am glad that your machines are working for you. This is not meant in a catty way, but, only as a matter of fact: if that particular model had worked as well for everyone, then perhaps it would still be in production and I would have been happy with mine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trey Cornette View Post
I have just recently had one of the machines begin to fail. I have all confidence that Jack will take care of this problem as soon as I contact him with the issue. I will give a report of the Oxygen Unlimited customer service after we resolve this issue. I really can’t comment on it as I have had no issues with the machines until know.
My intent here is not to inflame the situation, just to point out what I feel are unfair comparisons and to perhaps give you a sense of why some of the OU people have there hackles up. I would be happy to test my good machine and when the issue is resolved on the failing unit test it as well. Just send me the testing unit. I would be happy to know exactly how they perform.

Peace,
Trey
Two and a half years of working 30-70 hours a week is really not a long time for something that cost several hundreds of dollars ($700+). Concentrators should give a much longer life than that, especially for lampworking, where we do not even run them 24/7. I’m sorry that you’re having a problem, but I’m glad you caught it before the warranty expired.

I’m glad that you would be willing to test a working machine; just let me know when you’re ready. But, think about it… you have two concentrators and one of them is failing. Why should the failing one not be taken into consideration and tested as it is right now and after being repaired? Because it would somehow skew the results? I think that not including test data from machines that are not performing as they should is skewing the data. The purpose of the database is to reflect what is out there in the field. I am sure that there are people running on machines that I am sure are not performing optimally (not singling out any particular brand). I think that there are people out there running machines in the same condition as my M-20. To not include that is just not providing an accurate account of what is going on out there.

If you are still interested in testing your machines, that’s great.
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  #114  
Old 2008-06-02, 1:40pm
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Originally Posted by murf View Post
well Kim should have test all three UO machine given that they where the replacement units from GTT's original order. three bad machines where replaced with surely three machines that the manufactures tested before sending out. they are test as stated right? well wait, when is testing ok,when one arrives in working order or when one arrives? be fairly pointless to run a test on a machine that checks out ok, if it takes sending back five bad ones to get one good one. the test applies to the machine that arrives. period. nor do we want any rep there pulling off the sides or adjusting this or that. I am not service tech nor should I need to know any thing more than plug and play when purchasing a unit.
Your points are so good, they bear repeating.

Oh, and I would have gladly tested the first three units had I owned an analyzer back then.
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  #115  
Old 2008-06-02, 2:11pm
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Thank you, Trey . . . you put into words so eloquently exactly how I feel!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trey Cornette View Post
Part of the problem I have with your testing is the units you chose to test. You tested what you considered well working Regalia, Integra10, and Invacare machine and posted the results. You then took an OU M-20 that you knew was not functioning up to specs and singled it out as the only failing machine. You knew this faulty machine was going to fail the test to begin with. You further single out this machine by posting only photos of it failing not of the others passing. You seem to single it out with prejudice. I know you state it was a bad machine to begin with but given that why even test it. It appears as though you wanted to single out this company and it makes you results appear biased. It seems to me that for your tests to be unbiased then you should be testing and comparing only machines that are considered to be in working order. If you could not find an OU machine to test in a fair comparison then it should have been left out of the testing until you had access to one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbinkster View Post
I tested the machines I have on hand, All of them are performing in the same manner that they did when they were delivered to me. One of them was even a replacement unit for another that was faulty, so you would think that that would be as good as it gets, wouldn’t you? They are all four units that people are using out in the field and are all available, if not in the new market, then on the aftermarket.

I knew that the M-20 I had did not perform to my standards, but I did not know that it was below the specs stated by UO until after I tested it. How could I have known the oxygen concentration and true pressure output without testing? GTT was going by faith that these machines put out what SCC/UO said they were when they bought them.
But you DID know that it was below specs because you posted this on 2007-05-13, 10:01am:

http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/sh...3&postcount=11


Quote:
Originally Posted by kbinkster View Post
Those units are/were modified Respironics units.

The M-10 (aka P-10) is the modified Respironics 5 LPM concentrator. UO has tweaked it to put out 5 LPM at 10 psi. The original Respironics unit only put out somewhere around 5.25 psi.

When you look at the specs from Respironics for their units, there is a pressure number listed that is a really high pressure. It's a little misleading because that pressure is not the oxygen output pressure (what would be going to an oxygen patient or a torch in our case). I don't know whether it is the pressure of the exhaust or the pressure of the air compressor, I didn't ask Respironics, but it is not the product output pressure. They told me that pressure was around 5.25.

The M-20 (aka P-20) was the modified Respironics 10 LPM concentrator. UO modified it to put out 10 LPM at 20 psi. There were some purity issues at that output, so UO dialed it down to 8 LPM at 15 psi and now it is called the M-15 or the 1508.
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  #116  
Old 2008-06-02, 2:24pm
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Originally Posted by Mr. Smiley
First of all, I was not questioning your ability to run an analyzer. I'm questioning this whole thing. I don't see how you could have possibly had this bad of luck. Because it IS bad luck, if your statements are in fact honest results. From my perspective, I've seen so many of these working as they should to be able to understand your experience. I've seen what mine do and I've sold hundreds of units. I don't see my rear end all chewed up, which is exactly what would happen if I'd sold hundreds of bad units to this community.
So, let me get this straight. You are questioning not only my ability to run an analyzer (that post about me being new...), but my findings, as well?

That's rich: "if your statements are in fact honest results." Why would I ever post false results?

Let me remind you, Brent, I was not the person here caught trying to spread a lie as fact - a lie that Jack would have kept on trying to spread had I not refuted it with those documents.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Smiley View Post
I guess I'm one of the UO "crowd" and I don't care if you send out the analyzer to test these machines. I think having a data base is a great idea. I haven't seen anybody say it was a bad idea on either side. So, where are you getting the info to make inflammatory statements like this?
First of all, that wasn't an inflammatory statement. My project is meeting with resistance and the ones who have put up the resistance are part of the same group - they use and/or sell UO units.

Second, I don't have time to go through and cut-and-paste all the negative remarks that were made, but I will post a few:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis
I think comments from users are more valid and carry greater weight than those from sellers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis
My impressions from your postings (here and on all the other boards you've posted about your proposed comparison) is that your references will consistently favour the machines you sell and therefore will, and should be, viewed with some skepticism. It's like Ford posting a database comparing vehicle performance. Personally, I'd be interested in reading a comparison done by the auto club - but I'd never trust one done by any manufacturer or one of their dealers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack
I also dont see any point in dragging this on by sending you more units. I dont believe you can be bias.
Even you say out of one side of your mouth that a database would be good, but then out of the other side of your mouth question my honesty in reporting my findings. Just the fact that Dennis has kept on with the same protest about this being biased time and time again and on at least three different forums, even after I explained that the analyzer would be available to others, shows that he is simply against my project - and he is part of the group I'm talking about, so ....

Quit trying to take the fight to the ground, the tests are underway.
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  #117  
Old 2008-06-02, 2:28pm
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Originally Posted by Hayley View Post
Thank you, Trey . . . you put into words so eloquently exactly how I feel!!!





But you DID know that it was below specs because you posted this on 2007-05-13, 10:01am:

http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/sh...3&postcount=11



Hayley, the specs that I am refering to in this thread are Unlimited Oxygen's specs. The specs in the thread you referenced are Respironic's specs.

I will repeat again, I knew that the M-20 did not work as well as I would have liked it to, but I had no way of knowing that it did not even perform as well as UO claimed (their specs) until I tested it with the analyzer.
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  #118  
Old 2008-06-02, 2:54pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbinkster View Post
Hayley, the specs that I am refering to in this thread are Unlimited Oxygen's specs. The specs in the thread you referenced are Respironic's specs.

I will repeat again, I knew that the M-20 did not work as well as I would have liked it to, but I had no way of knowing that it did not even perform as well as UO claimed (their specs) until I tested it with the analyzer.
Ok, I must be dense and not following . . . you claimed that you "did not know that it was below the specs stated by UO until after I tested it." Yet, you posted a year ago that "The M-20 . . . (had) some purity issues at that output, so UO dialed it down to 8 LPM at 15 psi and now it is called the M-15 or the 1508." This indicates what Trey (and I) was saying . . . that you knew all along that the UO machine you were testing had purity issues but still chose to test it against other machines that are in good working order.

I, for one, would like to see the results on the analyzer using M-15 that are in good working order. Actually, I would LOVE to see a comparison of ONE Regalia against TWO M-15s – the most important analysis of all. At the same purity level, what PSI and what LPM are we looking at from the Regalia vs 2 M-15s. Since BOTH of my M-15s cost less than ONE Regalia, I would really like to know if what Trey says is true . . . that I made a good decision and got the most BANG for my $1500!!!

Honestly, when I was going to upgrade my Bobcat and DeVilbiss – since I got the Bobcat based on your recommendation and purchased the Devilbiss from you – with your great customer service, I wanted to give you the business. I did consider the Regalia, 7-9 psi / 10 lpm. But since I am interested in a Barracuda, I decided on the Hurricane, with its 20 psi / 15 lpm instead. As mentioned before, it was too loud for me so I exchanged it for two M-15s at 15 psi / 8lpm each.

As I understand it . . . and someone will correct me if I am wrong, I am sure! . . . that the purity level of these machines increases if the lpm decreases. So, if to really compare apple to apple . . . I would hook up two M-15s and lower the LPM to a combined 10 lpm (from 8 to 5 lpm each) to match the Regalia . . . I would think that the purity will be close to the Regalia . . . YET I will have more pressure, 15 psi on the M-15s compared to only 7-9 psi on the Regalia, right?

Now I am curious . . . and would LOVE to pay a deposit and a small usage fee and try your analyzer!!!!! Just tell me what to do!
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Last edited by Hayley; 2008-06-02 at 4:14pm. Reason: typos
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  #119  
Old 2008-06-02, 3:28pm
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Quote:
Just the fact that Dennis has kept on with the same protest about this being biased time and time again and on at least three different forums, even after I explained that the analyzer would be available to others, shows that he is simply against my project - and he is part of the group I'm talking about, so ....
Not true.

Dennis has no objection to any project designed to produce unbiased undirected results. His objection is to you having intentionally created derogatory UO results by intentionally chosing to test machines you knew in advance of testing would fail the test and thus produce the results you intended to get then took great effort to publicize on multiple boards.

You were the one that elected to post your "results" on multiple boards - not Dennis. It's reasonable those questionable results should be questioned on each of those boards.

Dennis finds it fascinating that so very many users have bought UO machines and expressed such satisfaction with them they regularly come back to buy more of the same machines - yet every UO machine you try tests deficient.
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  #120  
Old 2008-06-02, 3:29pm
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He said YOUR results may be biased. I am all for gathering information, but I do whole heartedly believe you should send it out for free. Yes, YOUR project is going to cost you, but it shouldn't cost the end user anything to take part. Why on earth would an average lampworker with any unit performing up to their expectations pay to get their unit tested. I'm sorry, but with this economy and the way gas prices are going up, you'll be hard pressed to find that curious of a person. Either way, I do wish you well.

Why would you provide misleading information? Well, I've seen first hand that you are capable of telling the community there isn't an issue with a product, when there is one. Why wouldn't you do the opposite for personal gain? (don't ask if you don't want an answer)

I'm not going to go round and round with you. You say I'm trying to take the fight to the ground, but you are the only one calling Jack names and being nasty after receiving an apology from him. He'll refund their money and if GTT would have called, he would have made it right a long time ago.

This seems like a desperate attempt to try and make your competition look bad. Do you really think people are just too dumb to know they've been using a bad machine? This seems to be what you're implying. Don't underestimate the intelligence of this community... I run two M-20s and quite frankly, I'm insulted by your comments about "us" just not realizing how poorly our units may be performing. I work glass with them all the time. I know how well they work. Period.
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