ok Im new but I got a question

nwmud · #1 2012-07-30, 11:07am

I keep reading about frit and I se references to Boro.
is there such thing a a soft glass frit?
and does it act the same as boro?
can I use boro frit with a hot head?
I been look at picturs of the frit pieces - they are beautiful.
I used frit when I took a glass blowing class a few years ago.
so I just want to beter understand- sorry if these questions are not in the right forum location.

Ritch

bepnewt · #2 2012-07-30, 11:18am

I'm completely new to this but have read a ton so far. I'll answer what I can while you wait for a better answer or get time to search.

--is there such thing a a soft glass frit?

Yes. Search "frit" on these forums and you'll find a lot of people who make and sell cool frit mixtures for soft glass. Sometimes a specific COE number won't be listed but glass names will and you can search on that glass name to find out its COE.

--and does it act the same as boro?

Can't help you here because I'm not sure what you mean by "act", but I can tell you that its use is the same. In general, you heat up the piece you're working on hot enough that frit will stick to it and roll / press / poke / whatever the piece into the frit and it will stick to it. Then you melt in in however you want.

--can I use boro frit with a hot head?

I would guess the general answer is "no". And while _maybe_ the technical answer is "yes, you can" the accepted answer is probably that you'll want a torch that takes O2 plus your other gas ( propane, natural gas, etc ) and enough flow to get hot enough to make Boro work feasible.

--I been look at picturs of the frit pieces - they are beautiful.

I gotta agree with you here. I see mind-blowing work on these forums daily.

Good luck!
-BEP

nwmud · #3 2012-07-30, 12:02pm

is there a big difference when using MAPP with your hothead instead of propane?
I understand it will provide a more stable fire.
for my question about frit
i was wondering if I have a soft glass and try to add a boro frit witll it melt in or will I destroy the soft glass getting it hot enough??

MagpieGlass · #4 2012-07-30, 12:06pm

Hi Ritch

First ... frit exists in soft and hard (boro).

You can find it in COE 104, COE 90 and COE 96 for soft.

If you want COE 104 check out Rabbit Hutch Frits and FAB Frits as well as GGlass

COE 90 is bullseye and not too many people mix them but you can sometimes find them at That Frit Girl (I think she also has 104)

COE 96 the sky is the limit. This is what you would have used when you were glass blowing. This is made from furnance glass and gives a lot more color. That Frit Girl, Glass Diversions, Bead Goodies, Frit Diva are my "go to" individuals for my 96 COE frit stash.

Any of 90/96/104 can be used in limited amounts on your soft glass (keep it to 5% of the total weight of the bead).

Lastly ... boro frit. Boro frit exists as blends and single colors. Boro will not work on a hot head ... just not enough heat. You will need to rent torch time or upgrade to a dual fuel torch. Hot Flash Frit, Venerable Bead both have blends. I make frit for Momka Glass and for some TAG colors and am working on my own line of blends (at this very moment).

Boro frit cannot be layered over soft glass even in the 5% rule. The expansion rates are too different.

Hope this is helpful!!

bepnewt · #5 2012-07-30, 12:07pm

It's not the melting of the Boro frit that will be your biggest problem. I think Boro glass typically has a COE of 33. Your soft glass will normally have a COE of 96 or 104. You do not want to mix glasses of different COE unless you really know what you're doing, but I think Boro and soft have different enough COE that they won't mix at all.

-BEP

MagpieGlass · #6 2012-07-30, 12:10pm

You are correct, Brian.

Boro and soft glass do not mix. As me how I know. ha ha. Now I color code my clear glass with different colored sharpie markers.

Sharpy burns off in the flame but keeps me from mixing 90, 104, 96 and 33 clear over the other base.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bepnewt

It's not the melting of the Boro frit that will be your biggest problem. I think Boro glass typically has a COE of 33. Your soft glass will normally have a COE of 96 or 104. You do not want to mix glasses of different COE unless you really know what you're doing, but I think Boro and soft have different enough COE that they won't mix at all.

-BEP

nwmud · #7 2012-07-30, 12:13pm

silly question - what is COE?
where I come from that an old truck with the Cab Over the Engine (COE). I love COE trucks but suspect we are not in the same worlds here

Three Muses Glass · #8 2012-07-30, 12:15pm

You can't mix boro frit with soft glass and the reverse is true as well. Boro is 33 COE, Moretti/Effetre/Lauscha/Double Helix/CIM/etc. are all 104 COE. That's coefficient of expansion. Most of the soft glass frit you see, especially the blends, are 'furnace' frits, they have a high lead/metal content that makes them mostly OK to use with 90 COE and 104 COE in extreme moderation. You can use all you want with 96 COE (Spectrum/Uroboros/System96) because the furnace frits themselves are in the 93-96 coe range.

There are frits for 90, 96 and 104 that are to themselves and can't be mixed with the others. Meaning they are not furnace glass and don't have a high lead/metal content.

Boro stands alone.

One reason why a Hothead is not good for boro is that there is not enough oxygen. Boro likes oxygen to burn off haze, get white hot, etc. that you can't do with any single fuel torch.

nwmud · #9 2012-07-30, 12:20pm

Thank you all for the information. I appreciate all the help your giving. I know this is fundimental stuff for most of you. But maybe some lurkers will learn a little too.

I like that fact so many of you are dog and animal lovers.

I guess my next steps if to go light a fire and see what happens......

even though I only have welding and cobalt blue glass to work with. I have no paddles yet. But I got a hot head, mapp gas, 4 mandrels ready to use and a handfull of 104 glass rods...... I should have a picture up by next weekend.

Three Muses Glass · #10 2012-07-30, 12:23pm

Everybody started somewhere! Welcome.

Go to the gallery section. There are threads on Hotheads, Newbie threads, and lots to look at and read. Have fun melting!

Eileen · #11 2012-07-30, 12:40pm

Also, hopefully when you say mandrels are ready to use, you mean you have bead release on them. If not, you can't get the bead off later.
Welcome to the addiction of melting glass!

nwmud · #12 2012-07-30, 12:44pm

yes - they have bead release on them.
I am pretty sure I will need to get more sine I only have 4 mandrels....

Eileen · #13 2012-07-30, 12:49pm

Yes, you need to renew it each time you use the mandrel so you will need more if you want to make more than 4 things!

cheng076 · #14 2012-07-30, 4:21pm

If you put COE 104 or 96 frit on boro there is about a 99.5% chance that on cooling it will seperate and leave a divot. It will melt in and not cause any problem until you cool the piece. Same thing happens with boro frit on soft glass.

Mandrels are most cheaply made by buying TIG (Tungsten Inert Gas) welding filler rods that come uncoated in 36" lengths and then cutting them into 9" or 12" mandrels. The rod is available in all the common maandrel diameters.

Have fun.

nwmud · #15 2012-07-31, 4:35am

after talking to my father again last night it turns out he gave me all bullseye COE 90 glass. I dont see many people talking about COE 90. is this easy to work with? would I be better to get 104?

Kevin Kluth · #16 2012-07-31, 4:51am

I have a ton of both 104 and Bullseye! 104 has an incredible variety of colors and the reactions are awesome. I always end up going back to Bullseye; there's just something special about Bulleye glass. I like the way it feels, can't describe it, I also like the feel of the finished pieces (sounds crazy!). I think the colors are perhaps a little more muted than 104, looking more real? But every once in a while I miss something in 104 like copper green or EDP, and sneak back.

Sorry that's prob not helpful, I'm sure someone else can answer better!

bepnewt · #17 2012-07-31, 7:07am

Quote:

Originally Posted by nwmud

after talking to my father again last night it turns out he gave me all bullseye COE 90 glass. I dont see many people talking about COE 90. is this easy to work with? would I be better to get 104?

If you're just starting, I wouldn't worry about changing glass. Work with what you have and learn as much as you can and more importantly, see if this hobby is for you. If it sticks - great!

Then get some 96 or 104 if you want and mess around with those glasses to see if have a better feel for them. Just make sure you keep your different COE rods separate and labeled so you don't accidentally mix your glass.

Before you do any glass melting, though, check out the safety forum. You don't want to have respiratory problems or vision problems for the rest of your life because you didn't know you could prevent them. If you choose not to heed any of the safety advice on goggles, ventilation, etc. then at least it was a choice and not a result of ignorance.

If you haven't already, search YouTube for "soft glass lampwork" and "lampwork" and "lampwork marbles" and "lampwork tutorial" and "lampwork implosion", etc. There are tons of great videos out there that are well worth the time to watch. Start with ones that show you the basics and then go on to advanced techniques that will make you drool over the final product. It will give you something to shoot for in the future.

If there's someone local that can give you a tutoring session, I highly recommend it. You may get lucky and find someone who will show you the basics or you may have to pay for a class. Either way, it's worth it just so you get some hands-on with someone there that can answer questions and give hints.

Lampworking looks very easy when done by experienced people, but when you're first starting out, you'll have problems until you Grok the Glass - understand where to apply heat, how much force or tension to use, where in the flame to hold the piece or the rod, etc. Some of it is intuitive and some it not but it's all learnable.

I'm about a 95% left-brainer and have no artistic talent. I easily grasp the physics behind this hobby but I lack any of the vision that makes a good artist. I'm cool with that because there are tons of tutorials, free or for sale, that will teach me stuff and there are thousands of pictures of items that I can attempt to recreate for my own enjoyment. I'm not in it for selling things, I'm in it for the Joy of Melting.

Good luck.
-BEP

framerak · #18 2012-07-31, 7:17am

I took my first lampworking class at Bullseye and worked with it almost exclusively for a couple of years. Beautiful colors, especially the pinks. It's a great glass to learn and work with since it's so consistent. Once you've learned a lot of the basics - twisties, stringers, dots, etc. - you can always start adding other glass to your repertoire.

Don't know if anyone answered your question about COE. COE = coefficient of expansion. Refers to the rate that glass expands and contracts. Mixing different COE glass causes cracking because it cools at different rates and exacerbates stress in the glass (sorry, I don't have a scientific brain so that explanation is really basic!). The bigger the difference in COE, the more likely you'll have cracking. A little bit of COE 96 frit works in COE 104 or COE 90 beads but that same amount of frit in a COE 33 bead will be more likely to crack.

If you haven't read it, I recommend reading Cindy Jenkin's book, "Making Glass Beads." It explains some concepts and techniques and is a valuable resource for lampworkers. And as you've already found out, there's a ton of knowledge on this forum and most people are very willing to share information. Check out the tutorial thread for some great tuts too!

Eileen · #19 2012-07-31, 7:26am

I am slowly getting multiple COE glass, and I do keep it separated and identified so I don't mix it. If you do mix them, you'll be sad at the result more than likely. Some people like one, some another, and others use them all depending on their whim and the project at hand. Just make sure you clear the decks from one before you use another so you don't forget and grab the wrong rod/stringer. Some people swap out a large cookie sheet on their work surface so they can just pick it up and move it all at once.

Check your local library for some books,
Cindy Jenkins mentioned above and also Beads of Glass
Passing the Flame by Corrina Tettinger
The Complete Book of Glass Beadmaking by Kimberley Adams
and others are full of information
(they may have to do a national search for some of them if your library offers that service, mine does it free)

nwmud · #20 2012-07-31, 7:57am

thanks everyone for the advise.
I have no intention of killing myself or even hurting my self.
I have great ventilation - OUTSIDE
I have eye protection - not the best yet - but glasses that will keep me safe.
I have watched plenty and have lots of experiences with metals and other techniques. It is only natural progression for me to move to this medium. As an engineering type person I do sometimes over think things - but I have a good touch of artistic talent also. I have some reservations about how I will do certain things until I can get the tools I desire. But for now I have pretty much what I need to start.

My father has a lot of glass experience - just not in this application. He most fuses glass - so we have had many discussions about the way glass reacts to heat and the way it melts.

When I took my glass blowing class a few years ago. The instructor asked me If I had done it before. I catch on real fast to these kinds of things. So I have some high hopes for what I can do. I am however practical and realize my first pieces will most likely be blobs of glass with little to no value to anyone except me (learning) - its priceless.

thanks a bunch folks.

wickedglass · #21 2012-08-01, 5:16am

Quote:

Originally Posted by framerak

Mixing different COE glass causes cracking because it cools at different rates and exacerbates stress in the glass (sorry, I don't have a scientific brain so that explanation is really basic!).

almost right

the problem is not the cooling at different rates. If you are annealing in a kiln, the glass cools at the same rate, the two glasses are a component of the same thermal mass, after all. That's the purpose of your kiln (or vermiculite, or fiber blanket, if you're using that) ... hopefully

the problem is that on cooling, the glasses with different COEs will contract at different rates. The higher the COE, the more contraction will occur, so essentially, if your have mixed a 33 glass with a 96 glass, the contraction (or shrinkage) of the 96 glass will be more extreme and cause a separation of the two glasses, which in turn causes fracturing.

AuntD · #22 2012-08-01, 2:03pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by nwmud

thanks everyone for the advise.
I have no intention of killing myself or even hurting my self.
I have great ventilation - OUTSIDE
I have eye protection - not the best yet - but glasses that will keep me safe.
I have watched plenty and have lots of experiences with metals and other techniques. It is only natural progression for me to move to this medium. As an engineering type person I do sometimes over think things - but I have a good touch of artistic talent also. I have some reservations about how I will do certain things until I can get the tools I desire. But for now I have pretty much what I need to start.

I hate to be the Voice of Doom here... but your outside ventilation will suck unless the wind is blowing the fumes AWAY from you. If the wind is blowing towards you, you're screwed. I'm assuming you've already thought of that and are planning to rotate your setup with the wind (OR, you could use a rotating platform like a merry-go-round and set up a sail to turn you as the wind changes. THAT would be fun! Overkill, but fun) so you don't asphyxiate yourself or get heavy metal poisoning. I'd just feel bad if I didn't mention it and then later we learned that you had breathing problems.

Also, for future reference, if your eyes start to tell you you're going to need didys, they can be obtained inexpensively from lots of places. They won't be pretty, but they WILL be ~$35.

Brian -- I love your phrase "The Joy of Melting"!

nwmud · #23 2012-08-01, 3:22pm

thanks for the idea - I do like it but I plan to just move my set up when i need to.
I will take a picture when I get ready to melt.
It will be very basic and simple to start.
I need to make some stuff before i can go to the boss and ask for money for supplies and equipment like some didy's
I am hoping that If I get into it - that the boss will want to try and fall in love with glass. like me.

Then some day...... Make a nice place in the garage with sections for different mediums.
have the glass wall
the welding center
and the wood shop.....

wish I had a bigger garage.

framerak · #24 2012-08-01, 6:52pm

Am I understanding that you're planning to melt glass using safety glasses but not didys or anything to protect your eyes from the flare? If so, I encourage you to re-think that. You're risking damage to your eyes. A basic pair of didys or ACE lenses will help safeguard your vision so you can enjoy glass, welding, wood and more for years to come.

If I'm misreading and you're using didys or ACE lenses, please ignore my mini-rant.

sharyl · #25 2012-08-02, 10:37am

Dito what Angela said about the diddy's. You gotta have them.

oh and don't get frustrated chasing the flame when it is windy. that will not be fun but its better than being inside without proper ventilation.

nwmud · #26 2012-08-02, 1:43pm

I think you are thinking I am going to use plain clear safety glasses......
Not me - I am a lot of things but not even remotely that stupid.
I have 1960's welding glasses with cobalt blue lenses. I also have shade 3 and shade 5 welding glasses. I do realize these are not ideal. But sometimes you make do with what you have before investing more money. I plan to get diddy's - I have located some for as little as $32. and will get them as soon as I can. But for now - I want to start making something to validate a few things.
I will never compromise my eyesight, I have come too close way to many times to loose it. Multiple burns in my eyes from acid, metal shards, and a finger now and then.
I have had an ER doctor tell me not to get out of bed without safety glasses. I no longer do that kind of work

Thank you for your concern.