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Tips, Techniques, and Questions -- Technical questions or tips |
2009-02-06, 8:29am
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Yellowbird, don't get me started or I will have to quote my daughter the environmental engineer, who after 10 years of working for a non-profit decided to get her doctorate in eco-hydrology, so she is back in school! I had to look eco-hydrology up!!
Natasha, I think that is a choice you have made, to hopefully better the working conditions in India. My own point of view is that nothing you or I can do will make a difference in the way they work and have worked for many, many years. The only way to make a difference is to support those businesses who are conscious of the problems their workers can have and take precautions to eliminate those problems. Many, many years ago factory owners did not have the scientific knowledge of what can happen to workers in this type of environment, but now there is no excuse. Lack of money is not an excuse to expose workers to an environment that will ultimately disable or kill them. And please, I didn't say anything about buying American, although that is my own preference since we have so many workers who are out of work, but I choose to support businesses who value their workers and who place a premium on providing a safe environment for them to work. Eight year old boys barefooted, practically nude, running from the furnace with gathers of hot glass, stepping on puddles of dropped glass and slivers of cold glass and getting run into by some other eight year old boy with a hot gather, dying at the age of 17 from silicosis, is not what I would call safe working conditions, and to me the only way to stop this practice is by exposing the conditions to the world, showing that we don't support or in any way condone these practices.
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"It is easier to perceive error than to find truth, for the former lies on the surface and is easily seen, while the latter lies in the depth, where few are willing to search for it." Johann Wolfgang Von Goeth
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2009-02-06, 8:50am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yellowbird
Thinking about every single thing we buy and the wrappings it comes in will keep you busy. It is amazing and on the other end how you throw stuff away and where it goes Not where they tell you it goes but where it actually ends up. Don't buy anything with plastic if you want to do what is right for the planet. try doing that for a week.
I couldn't.
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It sounds like you are saying that if we can't be perfect in an imperfect world, we might as well throw our consciences and ethics to the wayside and not try to make the best choices for humanity or the environment in ANY area of our lives.
Is that really what you're saying?
I really don't agree with that. I think that, despite our limited options, we can make the best environmental and socially ethical choices available to us in an imperfect world, and that asking for more information to help us make those choices is not wrong.
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2009-02-06, 9:25am
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Sigh...
Well, since this thread has gotten way off course, I guess I need to start another one on how to work this glass and its characteristics. Political opinions are for another forum people. One more time... please.
O.K., I'm ready to be bashed.
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2009-02-06, 9:28am
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Natasha, I appreciate your view, really, but to my thinking there is no guarantee that money spent will result in improvements in the conditions of the factory workers. There is nothing that says the money will do anything other than fill the pockets of the owner of the factory - if it even gets that far. There are many countries with people living in impoverished conditions, including our own, especially today. People need to be given both sides of the story and they can make their own decisions. Robin posted the other side of the story for those who will take the trouble to click through and read. The rest of it is just debate. Your side, my side or someone else's side. I don't know a lot, but what I do know is glass, the use of it, the production of it, the dangers of it and I won't buy any that is tainted with the blood of children. Everyone is entitled to make that decision for themselves.
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Pam
"It is easier to perceive error than to find truth, for the former lies on the surface and is easily seen, while the latter lies in the depth, where few are willing to search for it." Johann Wolfgang Von Goeth
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2009-02-06, 9:30am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J&M
Well, since this thread has gotten way off course, I guess I need to start another one on how to work this glass and its characteristics. Political opinions are for another forum people. One more time... please.
O.K., I'm ready to be bashed.
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Sorry, I guess we don't define "political opinions" the same way. No bashing, honestly!!
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Pam
"It is easier to perceive error than to find truth, for the former lies on the surface and is easily seen, while the latter lies in the depth, where few are willing to search for it." Johann Wolfgang Von Goeth
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2009-02-06, 9:34am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kym
I am a bit surprised that anyone feels they are entitled to the results of Natasha and Daniels research. Country of origin seems more than fair.
You want more than that, you might want to hit the trail and do your own research.
Cheers
Kym
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Ditto. And start your own thread in the proper forum. I'm pretty sure Tips, Techniques, and Questions isn't the place to discuss other countries working practices/conditions.
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2009-02-06, 9:36am
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Is it really the place to promote one's new line of glass and do customer service troubleshooting, though?
This seems like the relevant thread. However, if you report it, perhaps Corri will split it into two threads for us.
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2009-02-06, 9:42am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalera
Is it really the place to promote one's new line of glass and do customer service troubleshooting, though?
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Yes. This is a GLASS forum, not a political forum.
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2009-02-06, 9:43am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalera
Is it really the place to promote one's new line of glass and do customer service troubleshooting, though?
This seems like the relevant thread. However, if you report it, perhaps Corri will split it into two threads for us.
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Considering the manufacturer isn't the person who started the thread and the discussion of working properties, etc. before the thread went all off on a tangent, I'd say yes. This is the proper place for the original line of conversation.
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2009-02-06, 9:46am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prettyangel
When my husband was a child, he visited Italy. I just won't go into what he saw, the impoverished conditions not fit for animals. It is still vivid in his mind. But if we chose not to do business with the Italians back then, they would be the same, and their glass factories would be the same.
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You aren't really comparing Italy of 20 or 30 years ago to India today, are you?
Really?
http://mondediplo.com/1998/09/11negri
http://www.nationsencyclopedia.com/E...y-ECONOMY.html
http://www.jstor.org/pss/2129431
http://www.thomaswhite.com/explore-the-world/italy.aspx
I agree that it takes money to implement change, but the problem is that the money flowing into India is going into the hands of those at the very top, and their economic system is such that more money at the top does not benefit the workers at the bottom. I don't think that simply pumping more money into the top will change that... it certainly hasn't so far, if you look at the thriving tech industry.
I am just talking about the reality, as unpleasant as it is. I think it will take significant pressure from the Western market to get that to change, not quiet acceptance.
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2009-02-06, 9:48am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J&M
Yes. This is a GLASS forum, not a political forum.
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I am talking about glass, business and ethics, all of which relate to the original topic. If we are not allowed to discuss glass business and glass ethics here, we should also not be allowed to discuss fraudulent bead importers and bad bidders on this forum.
I would be fine seeing the topic split, but it evolved in this subforum because this is where the topic of Devardi glass orginated.
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2009-02-06, 9:50am
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This is getting ridiculous...
PLEASE???????????????????????????
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2009-02-06, 9:54am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prettyangel
Touché J & M. It's been thoroughly hashed over. We all have our viewpoints and we have to go with what our gut tells us. We don't always agree with each other on what to do, but we do have the same goal. And that is the great point.
We are taking some time today to take videos of beads we are making from Devardi Glass to show their compatability with other glasses. Also, some have complained about shockiness of the Devardi Glass and also discoloring and other problems. I have stressed that people who are familiar with Moretti and other COE 104 glasses need to lower their flame with the Devardi to avoid these problems. Lowering the flame more than you would with Moretti, preheating the rods and annealing directly after the bead is done provides a very successful bead. Colors tend to remain very true also. One thing more we have found with Devardi Glass is that if you overheat it, even if it doesn't lose its color, I believe some of the glass changes its composition, causing cracking later. Keeping the flame cooler eliminates this drastically, even when you combine it with other types of glass. So, we will try to show some videos of the flame and different color rods being used under these cooler flame conditions. It is a challenge lowering the flame when most are used to a higher flame. But, once you become accustom to it, it becomes habit, and your bead making becomes much more successful. Thanks again everyone for your comments and suggestions. All are welcome and appreciated. Have a great day. Natasha
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Yep. That's exactly what I've been doing with this glass and have had no problems at all with shockiness, as I reported earlier. BTW, that bright Orange trans. is beautiful!
Jack
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2009-02-06, 9:59am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mandalinn
I was searching around on Ebay and found Devardi glass rods for sale.......they have a gorgeous rose color and others, but the prices seem low and I am a bit leery of the Bay these days.
Anyone know anything about this glass?
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Here is the origin of the thread. "Anyone know anything about this glass?" You have heard from the importer and from those who have played with the glass, so I must assume that is all you are interested in - not the origin, not the working conditions of the people in the factory. That's fine and your right, however some people have a greater need for knowledge and are you then proposing that those people be denied the ability to gain that knowledge because it is knowledge you don't want? I personally feel that all knowledge is valuable. This has nothing to do with politics or which party you belong to. It has everything to do with the glass being offered for sale.
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"It is easier to perceive error than to find truth, for the former lies on the surface and is easily seen, while the latter lies in the depth, where few are willing to search for it." Johann Wolfgang Von Goeth
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2009-02-06, 10:02am
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I very much agree, well-said Pam.
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2009-02-06, 10:04am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pam
Here is the origin of the thread. "Anyone know anything about this glass?" You have heard from the importer and from those who have played with the glass, so I must assume that is all you are interested in - not the origin, not the working conditions of the people in the factory. That's fine and your right, however some people have a greater need for knowledge and are you then proposing that those people be denied the ability to gain that knowledge because it is knowledge you don't want? I personally feel that all knowledge is valuable. This has nothing to do with politics or which party you belong to. It has everything to do with the glass being offered for sale.
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Then, by all means, start another thread.
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2009-02-06, 10:15am
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moth to the flame
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J&M
Then, by all means, start another thread.
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No kidding.
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2009-02-06, 10:17am
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I'm sorry, but I guess I'm wondering why you think I should start a new thread. My "anything" includes anything, but perhaps your "anything" only includes the working qualities of the glass. Actually, I could give you a lot more information about that, but I am trying to be polite and just respond to the questions and comments. I'm sorry if you think that is inappropriate.
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Pam
"It is easier to perceive error than to find truth, for the former lies on the surface and is easily seen, while the latter lies in the depth, where few are willing to search for it." Johann Wolfgang Von Goeth
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2009-02-06, 10:20am
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Sigh...
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2009-02-06, 10:29am
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moth to the flame
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pam
I'm sorry, but I guess I'm wondering why you think I should start a new thread. My "anything" includes anything, but perhaps your "anything" only includes the working qualities of the glass. Actually, I could give you a lot more information about that, but I am trying to be polite and just respond to the questions and comments. I'm sorry if you think that is inappropriate.
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This thread WAS about discussing the performance of this glass.
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2009-02-06, 11:16am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeadMaven
This thread WAS about discussing the performance of this glass.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mandalinn
I was searching around on Ebay and found Devardi glass rods for sale.......they have a gorgeous rose color and others, but the prices seem low and I am a bit leery of the Bay these days.
Anyone know anything about this glass?
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It really does just say "Anyone know anything about this glass?"
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2009-02-06, 11:20am
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Pam and Kalera have both been involved in glass a very long time and have reputations for being honest and fair. . I am interested in their opinions and information.
Paula
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2009-02-06, 11:20am
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jessica barksdale
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frankly, i think its great people are going out of their way to give us all the information possible about this glass, good & bad, & its country of orgin.
i think if anyone questioning the working conditions knew for a fact that there were proper safety measures & no children involved, they would love to try this glass.
i understand if natasha does not want to devulge the factory NAME, but she still has not directly answered the question of whether or not there are kids working at this factory.
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2009-02-06, 11:34am
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I am curious whether the pulled posts were deleted or split into a new thread... as far as I know none of them violated any of the rules here, so I hope they were split into a new thread, as they took some time to compose and many had valuable information.
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2009-02-06, 12:01pm
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Smile, it's contagious!
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I'm not sure why the posts were deleted... they were on topic. The title of the tread is "what is Deviardi glass". If it's made in India, then it's likely sweatshop glass. How is that "off topic"????
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2009-02-06, 12:13pm
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Come on, guys, I am sure they were not deleted. It was probably a glitch in the software or something when the update was made. People don't delete the truth and nothing in those posts were either lies or rude that I saw.
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2009-02-06, 12:16pm
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On A Lampwork Hiatus
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I just got off the torch from finally being able to play a bit with the Devardi glass... (pictures forthcoming when they are out of the kiln).
My thoughts prior to seeing the finished beads....
The glass works a lot like bullseye as far as stiffness goes. Stringer work, like a lot have already said, was a lot easier using it.
I played with semi opaque marine blue, metallic black, saffron, baby blue, violet, and I believe it was a semi opaque pea green color.
I worked all the colors farther out in the flame, up near the 3/4 to end of the flame.. Its 50 degrees here today and I torch outside in the garage so it was pretty cold.. Took about 20 seconds per rod when I first started using the rod and heated it in and out of the flame. I had ZERO popping and breakage of glass. Truthfully, it was really nice to work with.
I didn't have any of the bubbles that y'all experienced with I believe the marine blue. As long as I kept it higher up in the flame, it didn't boil or bubble.
The voilet was still purple when I put it in the kiln. I encased it, so I don't know if that will have any effect on the issue of it turning grey. We will see when it comes out.
The metallic black I really really like. I didn't have any trouble getting the silver to come out, just turned my propane way down, or on one all you really need to do is get the black to boil and the silver just popped right out, although I think it looks a lot more pretty getting the silver out a little slower. I tried one with the metallic black boiled, we will see if it looks good.
I have a few more colors to try but all in all I am happy working with it. I love the semi-opaque colors.. They just have some type of inner glow to them. I will hold my final verdict though until I see them out of the kiln later today.
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2009-02-06, 12:22pm
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More examples of Devardi...
Here's a few quickies using Trans. Orange and the Trans. Red, Black, & White.
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2009-02-06, 12:23pm
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moth to the flame
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Thanks for the update and info Megan.
The more I hear about the semi opaques the more I want to try some.
Can't wait to see pics so please do post them when you can!
ETA: Ooh they are pretty J & M!!!
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2009-02-06, 12:27pm
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I love the orange and red! Great colors and great beads! Must add them to my list for my next order.
Beth
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