Advice on new kiln purchase

[KJohn]

Hahaha JR you are right, that thing is scary! But I ended up being able to prewarm on the top of my kiln and occasionally inside so that works for me much better. Although it's one more place where rods tend to pile up.

You know Jen, I have heard something like that too, but not sure what the details were? I have looked briefly and can't find what that would refer to.

In any case, I used thick ceramic or fiber blankets sandwiched together. Wrapped with several layers of aluminum foil on three sides. I put all this on a tray. Evenly heat the piece and then let it cool just a little bit until the orange glow is gone. You can hold it under the table to check. Slide it in. Try to keep them separate from each other as they can crack older beads. That's the biggest problem after kiss marks from the fiber. I always moved them to the right every time i have two to three. Same thing i do now with a kiln LOL

Sometimes I used annealing bubbles but I wasn't sure if they worked as well. They are not as dusty as vermaculite and are easier to push the beads into. Artco Inc sells them.

I wouldn't bother with a coffee warmer or crockpot or anything like that. It doesn't generate enough heat to make a difference. Strain point for glass is something like 850-900F so you just need it to cool as slowly as possible. Once it hits the coffee warmer temps it no longer matters.

[danieljanse]

Hold on a minute!

JR, we may be on to something here! Whole house heat for $30?

Let's not forget that India is a nuclear power...maybe they have something figured out.

LOL...happy Monday!

[rcktscientist]

Originally Posted by jesnbec73

I got one of those Devardi Rod Preheating deals...
I have a pretty large surface around my torch so I put it nearby, my god it's like standing next to a woodstove, god only knows what kind of wiring is in there being from India and all and it is probably the scariest thing in my studio, and I work with hydrogen so that is saying something. But, it really does work, especially with thicker rods like those fat 18mm clears that I avoided for so long. All I can say is... NO FEAR!!! LOL

I also use one of those on my benchtop since I make small things. I bought my original one from Devardi but have since replaced it with one from Amazon. These things will work as a boro annealer if you use a digital controller (ramp style) and a ceramic fiber 'door' (to allow for higher temps). With that controller it will also ramp up as slowly as I want, for builds with thicker pieces.
I seem to recall thermomart making a plug and play ramp controller kit that could work here. I made my own digital controller with a rasb pi.
As far as build quality and materials, I run mine at 1050F for hours for garaging, I have ramped up to 1100F with short holds for striking, and I run all my normal 1040-1060F anneal cycles. No issues yet but I never leave it unattended!

[jesnbec73]

Originally Posted by danieljanse

Hold on a minute!

JR, we may be on to something here! Whole house heat for $30?

Let's not forget that India is a nuclear power...maybe they have something figured out.

LOL...happy Monday!

I have no problem believing that thing would be capable of heating a small house or large room, it's unreal how hot it gets. I don't know how many watts that it's pulling, but hey, we're glass artists and we have breakers

[jesnbec73]

Originally Posted by rcktscientist

I also use one of those on my benchtop since I make small things. I bought my original one from Devardi but have since replaced it with one from Amazon. These things will work as a boro annealer if you use a digital controller (ramp style) and a ceramic fiber 'door' (to allow for higher temps). With that controller it will also ramp up as slowly as I want, for builds with thicker pieces.
I seem to recall thermomart making a plug and play ramp controller kit that could work here. I made my own digital controller with a rasb pi.
As far as build quality and materials, I run mine at 1050F for hours for garaging, I have ramped up to 1100F with short holds for striking, and I run all my normal 1040-1060F anneal cycles. No issues yet but I never leave it unattended!

Did something go wrong with the one from Devardi? Curious as that thing makes me a nervous wreck really, but so far it's worked great. How did you wire the controller into that thing, just like an on/off thermostat? It's also great for preheating parts, wings, antennae, ears etc. and holding stuff that needs to be kept hot, but I never thought about using it as an annealer.

[rcktscientist]

Originally Posted by jesnbec73

Did something go wrong with the one from Devardi? Curious as that thing makes me a nervous wreck really, but so far it's worked great. How did you wire the controller into that thing, just like an on/off thermostat? It's also great for preheating parts, wings, antennae, ears etc. and holding stuff that needs to be kept hot, but I never thought about using it as an annealer.

It's ramp up performance started dropping off after a couple years. When I first got it, it would ramp from room temp to 1050 in about 14 minutes. Later it was taking about 17 minutes so I replaced it. The Amazon one performs like the Devardi did when new but it does not come with a dial switch which is fine since I use a controller anyway.
All you need to put in the annealer is your thermocouple wire. I have the fabric wrapped one with the solid tip and I routed it down the side to end at the back of the chamber. I used thin wire to secure it to the outside and I rely on the wire stiffness to keep it against the side and out of the way.
I use and recommend a ramp controller not just an on/off thermostat but I guess you could buy whatever kit you like.
It should be noted that I basically wrap mine in fiber blanket. I have a thick piece between the back and the wall it sits against. I have 2 stacked pieces draped over the top to insulate and to give me an easy spot to stuff beads and small marbles, plus I have mine sitting on a brick with a small piece of blanket stuffed between the chamber and the base to protect the wiring from heat.

[danieljanse]

Hey JR...what do you make with hydrogen? I caught that you use it in another thread.

This product would make the little heater work with thermocouple control. Plug and play! A type K capable of withstanding 1000F (up to 2000F) is $20 from them as well. All told, about $200 to add temp control to a $30 oven. Auber makes good stuff.

https://www.auberins.com/index.php?m...roducts_id=161

[rcktscientist]

Originally Posted by danieljanse

Hey JR...what do you make with hydrogen? I caught that you use it in another thread.

This product would make the little heater work with thermocouple control. Plug and play! A type K capable of withstanding 1000F (up to 2000F) is $20 from them as well. All told, about $200 to add temp control to a $30 oven. Auber makes good stuff.

https://www.auberins.com/index.php?m...roducts_id=161

I agree that Auber makes good stuff, I have used several PID controllers from them.
Unfortunately that model is not a ramp controller, just set point.
For this project you'd want the Auber 'Combo PR-55' which is all the parts minus the enclosure and high-temp k thermocouple. Or maybe the WS-2000F-USB.which is already self-contained.

[danieljanse]

I saw that it was just a setpoint controller but figured ramp/soak might be overkill...especially budget overkill.

When just working between RT and ~1000F and on such a small scale, it seems like using setpoints and durations would be more hands-on but equally effective.

For example:
Setpoint1: hold temp (~1000F, garage temp)...if no hold, then 9999min
Setpoint 2: anneal temp (950F?), 60min
Setpoint 3: 800F, 60 min
Setpoint 4: 500F, 60 min
Setpoint 5: 300F, 60 min
Turn off.

[jesnbec73]

Originally Posted by danieljanse

Hey JR...what do you make with hydrogen? I caught that you use it in another thread.

I have two small HHO torches that I primarily use as hand torches at the moment. I have no idea why, but HHO is WAY less shocky and it preheats little chunks of cullet like a dream. Stuff that I would normally put in a kiln to preheat before melting, if I were to try to put it into a normal propane oxygen flame it would explode, but the HHO torch heats it up super fast and doesn't seem to shock it. I think the lack of radiant heat in the flame itself is the likely explanation. I also use it to make small marbles, little sculpts, stringers etc. The unit I'm using only puts out around 1.5 lpm, which isn't a large flame and limits what I can do with it.

I do have a large fuel cell and a power supply that will produce around 12lpm, but I've not got it hooked up yet. My would-be partner was a mechanical genius and was going to help me put together a system that would allow me to switch my studio over to just HHO, he turned out to be a 'drinker' unfortunately. I had already touched base with a manufacturer who was interested and talked to Mountain Glass about it etc. but when my partner flopped, it left me without a working prototype, just sketches and plans. I'm pretty sure it's a utility patent waiting to happen if I ever get my stuff together, but I'm not an engineer and I spent about a month staring at Auto-cad before I realized that I should have stayed in school LOL If you haven't used HHO for glass though, it really is incredible.

[rcktscientist]

Originally Posted by danieljanse

I saw that it was just a setpoint controller but figured ramp/soak might be overkill...especially budget overkill.

When just working between RT and ~1000F and on such a small scale, it seems like using setpoints and durations would be more hands-on but equally effective.

For example:
Setpoint1: hold temp (~1000F, garage temp)...if no hold, then 9999min
Setpoint 2: anneal temp (950F?), 60min
Setpoint 3: 800F, 60 min
Setpoint 4: 500F, 60 min
Setpoint 5: 300F, 60 min
Turn off.

Those types of annealing schedules do not take into account the kiln's natural cooling rate. If yours happens to be quick, you will have issues with higher than expected internal stresses that will likely cause problems. The controlled ramp is what ensures internal stresses are maintained at an acceptable level, particularly through the strain point for any COE glass.

Ramp isn't overkill. In fact, set point is inadequate for true annealing. If your budget doesn't allow true annealing, that is a separate problem. Easiest solution there is to wait and save up $.

[rcktscientist]

Originally Posted by jesnbec73

I have two small HHO torches that I primarily use as hand torches at the moment. I have no idea why, but HHO is WAY less shocky and it preheats little chunks of cullet like a dream. Stuff that I would normally put in a kiln to preheat before melting, if I were to try to put it into a normal propane oxygen flame it would explode, but the HHO torch heats it up super fast and doesn't seem to shock it. I think the lack of radiant heat in the flame itself is the likely explanation. I also use it to make small marbles, little sculpts, stringers etc. The unit I'm using only puts out around 1.5 lpm, which isn't a large flame and limits what I can do with it.

I do have a large fuel cell and a power supply that will produce around 12lpm, but I've not got it hooked up yet. My would-be partner was a mechanical genius and was going to help me put together a system that would allow me to switch my studio over to just HHO, he turned out to be a 'drinker' unfortunately. I had already touched base with a manufacturer who was interested and talked to Mountain Glass about it etc. but when my partner flopped, it left me without a working prototype, just sketches and plans. I'm pretty sure it's a utility patent waiting to happen if I ever get my stuff together, but I'm not an engineer and I spent about a month staring at Auto-cad before I realized that I should have stayed in school LOL If you haven't used HHO for glass though, it really is incredible.

I'm an engineer. Maybe I can help.

[danieljanse]

I use a big heating tip on a Smith torch with a large H2 cylinder and oxygen. The stuff is crazy hot. I need it for certain techniques...clean reduction. I was hoping it would not discolor my glass, but if I heat too much it gets yellowed just like propane will do. I'm really still getting use to using it especially with things like dark ivory. I can heat the color right out of the glass with it!

Your 12LPM setup sounds amazing. A large cylinder of the stuff isn't cheap but I use it pretty sparingly...wish I had a system making it from water. LOL

Staring at Auto-Cad brings back some bad memories! I did take a class and still couldn't do much with it.

Wonder if this is helpful...This guy shows how to make a 12LPM unit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73ydsju2134

[jenseev]

Originally Posted by rcktscientist

I also use one of those on my benchtop since I make small things. I bought my original one from Devardi but have since replaced it with one from Amazon. These things will work as a boro annealer if you use a digital controller (ramp style) and a ceramic fiber 'door' (to allow for higher temps). With that controller it will also ramp up as slowly as I want, for builds with thicker pieces.
I seem to recall thermomart making a plug and play ramp controller kit that could work here. I made my own digital controller with a rasb pi.
As far as build quality and materials, I run mine at 1050F for hours for garaging, I have ramped up to 1100F with short holds for striking, and I run all my normal 1040-1060F anneal cycles. No issues yet but I never leave it unattended!

I’ve done some work with a rasberry pi, could you elaborate at all? You don’t perhaps have an instructable tutorial or drawings&code, instructions you could share? And any photos of how you closed off the ends/put the doors on? That would be amazingly helpful! The raspi work I’ve done has been pretty straightforward - python to read a spreadsheet data & PIR motion sensor, to time/interrupt the trigger of servo motors (art installation). I assume you’d use the kiln temp probe as sensor input to check the heat, but the python code to read that in and control ramping - mmm how?? Use a series of if/then loops/& temp checks, or ??? And what sensor can withstand the heat? Thx for any info! Jen

[jesnbec73]

Originally Posted by rcktscientist

I'm an engineer. Maybe I can help.

Sent you a PM...

[jenseev]

Originally Posted by jenseev

I’ve done some work with a rasberry pi, could you elaborate at all? You don’t perhaps have an instructable tutorial or drawings&code, instructions you could share? And any photos of how you closed off the ends/put the doors on? That would be amazingly helpful! The raspi work I’ve done has been pretty straightforward - python to read a spreadsheet data & PIR motion sensor, to time/interrupt the trigger of servo motors (art installation). I assume you’d use the kiln temp probe as sensor input to check the heat, but the python code to read that in and control ramping - mmm how?? Use a series of if/then loops/& temp checks, or ??? And what sensor can withstand the heat? Thx for any info! Jen

Doh! Just found this for anyone interested!
https://www.instructables.com/Build-...?amp_page=true

[rcktscientist]

Originally Posted by jenseev

Doh! Just found this for anyone interested!
https://www.instructables.com/Build-...?amp_page=true

That's the page I started with. I believe it links to another page by jbruce12000.
With those 2 pages you can build it. There is quite a bit of tuning involved but in the end you have a plug and play wifi ramp controller that you can control
(and program!) from any device on the same wifi network, like your phone.

I'll take some pictures but not sure how well the uploading process will go. I've had issues before but I'll give it a shot.

[jenseev]

Originally Posted by rcktscientist

That's the page I started with. I believe it links to another page by jbruce12000.
With those 2 pages you can build it. There is quite a bit of tuning involved but in the end you have a plug and play wifi ramp controller that you can control
(and program!) from any device on the same wifi network, like your phone.

I'll take some pictures but not sure how well the uploading process will go. I've had issues before but I'll give it a shot.

Thank you! That would be amazing! Also any other advice you might have..

[rcktscientist]

Originally Posted by jenseev

Thank you! That would be amazing! Also any other advice you might have..

I haven't gotten around to documenting and uploading this but I wanted to extend my help to you or anyone else that may try building it. Feel free to message me with any questions during your build and I'll do my best to help.
My life is busy so I likely won't get around to capturing this for a while but I can help others with specific issues through message and email.
firebratglass@gmail.com