Higher Flame = Different Colors

Woonasty · #1 2024-08-04, 1:46pm

So im wondering what this is called, and what the correct way to think about it is.

I know my torch well enough to know that i need to work different colors in a different level of flame. Im on a hothead so my adjustment is 'more or less gas', i dont get to adjust oxygen levels.

For example clears have to be worked on a minuscule flame or they turn grey and look burned. And i mean small, to the point where if i turn it down any more the flame goes out. Thats how i have to work it, if i turn the flame up it wont be clear anymore. This is fine it just makes encasing take longer.

But i have to do the same thing for certain colors, for example turquoise turns purple instead of blue if i turn up the flame, but if i work it low it stays turquoise.

Emerald turns darker the higher the flame goes, thats another one.

Is there a word for this?

PIC is two beads made with the exact same rod. "Caribbean Sea"

KJohn · #2 2024-08-04, 5:35pm

Your other option would be to move your arm & bead further away from the torch to work higher in the flame. That is soot primarily and comes from working too close to the torch face regardless of the heat being turned down. Run a more "regular" flame for the hothead instead and work higher up.

And honestly this is the reason why i only worked on the hotthead for a few years. I totally get it. Upgrade torches and you need a lot of new & pricey equipment. But there is still more you can do with the HH. Good luck

Woonasty · #3 2024-08-04, 8:22pm

Yeah I've definitely tried that for the clear but the lower flame just works better for me. Il give it another try in my next session.

What do you think about the blue turning purple? That doesn't seem like soot? I mean it's possible, but it doesn't look all dirty like the clear, it just seems to be a completely different color.

jesnbec73 · #4 2024-08-05, 4:47am

The carbon in the flame does some weird stuff to some colors, that's at least what I always assumed was going on. It's a chemical reaction in some cases, soot deposits in others, propane is nasty stuff.

Several years back I got myself one of these things...
https://www.amazon.com/Guaopom-Hydro.../dp/B0C77MY8FC
You can definitely get cheaper ones, or more expensive ones, but it's an HHO torch and it's clean and hot enough to melt pretty much anything on a small scale, the torch that comes with it is rubbish though, I upgraded to a better one, like https://www.amazon.com/Universal-Oxy.../dp/B07BFXCY4Q. An extra bubbler to clean out any remaining electrolyte is a good idea as well, that will make more sense once you've done some research and used it for a while, but for two hundred or so bucks, that thing has long since paid for itself and literally runs on distilled water and electricity.

kevingreenbmx · #5 2024-08-05, 6:50am

Those are all reduction reactions. Too much unburnt fuel in the flame, needs more air. On a hothead, all you can do is work further out in the flame and take it slow. On an oxy/fuel torch, you would tune the flame to be more oxidizing.

rcktscientist · #6 2024-08-05, 7:41am

Like the others said, keep the flame turned up and work further in the back of the flame. As I recall, I would keep glass clear by working in the area around the tip of the outer cone (darker blue inner cone and lighter blue outer cone).
As for blue and purple, the blue is likely reducing to a dull purple. Same issue, same solution.
Best of luck!

Woonasty · #7 2024-08-05, 11:47am

Quote:

Originally Posted by jesnbec73

literally runs on distilled water and electricity.

o.O

Woonasty · #8 2024-08-05, 12:30pm

looked it up and that is actually super cool, but i think id rather just wait till i can afford a minor or something instead of going half way.

my experiments today working far out in the flame worked fine. my colors kept and my clear didnt blacken. Im just not used to that, it feels odd since i let myself get used to my original fix of using a tiny flame, but i will just keep at it im sure il get used to it.

KJohn · #9 2024-08-05, 4:40pm

It does feel weird and you really have to train yourself to do that. You know it would be good to figure out some sort of arm rest or arm support, it will help you keep your position easier. It's all practice and you definitely can do some nice things with the HH. I did work on one for a few years (and sold beads) before I upgraded.

Definitely save up and get something that will last you as well. I would recommend an Alpha or Star, when you do. Oxycons from Available oxygen, where i get mine. There's a waiting list usually but the prices are better than the lampwork retail shops. Just my 2 cents.

Most important, enjoy your journey!!

P.S. You can soak your beads in etching fluid to remove the scummy gray from propane reduction. You can try it with the others too but YMMV.

jesnbec73 · #10 2024-08-06, 4:23pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woonasty

looked it up and that is actually super cool, but i think id rather just wait till i can afford a minor or something instead of going half way.

my experiments today working far out in the flame worked fine. my colors kept and my clear didnt blacken. Im just not used to that, it feels odd since i let myself get used to my original fix of using a tiny flame, but i will just keep at it im sure il get used to it.

I primarily use a Nortel Minor, the HHO setup has become my hand torch and I use it to preheat small pieces or for melting scraps and other odds and ends, it's pretty incredible and I absolutely love it. Hydrogen got a very unfair rap with the whole Hindenberg thing, especially when produced on demand rather than being stored. I drag that thing out onto the porch every 4th of July with a bowl of soapy water, I won't go into more detail than that though LOL

That Hot Head will absolutely work once you figure it out though, I used one for years and it took me a while to figure out which glass would discolor and needed to be worked higher in the flame where there is more O2. If memory serves, Turquoise and Petroleum Green always gave me a fit. Once you get a better setup, all those issues will be a memory, but hang on to that Hot Head, it will probably come in handy for something. There are some oddball glasses out there that will only strike in a propane only flame, and I ended up using the HH torch for a bunch of stuff around the house.

rcktscientist · #11 2024-08-08, 11:42am

Quote:

Originally Posted by jesnbec73

I primarily use a Nortel Minor, the HHO setup has become my hand torch and I use it to preheat small pieces or for melting scraps and other odds and ends, it's pretty incredible and I absolutely love it. Hydrogen got a very unfair rap with the whole Hindenberg thing, especially when produced on demand rather than being stored. I drag that thing out onto the porch every 4th of July with a bowl of soapy water, I won't go into more detail than that though LOL

That Hot Head will absolutely work once you figure it out though, I used one for years and it took me a while to figure out which glass would discolor and needed to be worked higher in the flame where there is more O2. If memory serves, Turquoise and Petroleum Green always gave me a fit. Once you get a better setup, all those issues will be a memory, but hang on to that Hot Head, it will probably come in handy for something. There are some oddball glasses out there that will only strike in a propane only flame, and I ended up using the HH torch for a bunch of stuff around the house.

Does your HHO torch allow for flame chemistry changes? Can you get a reducing flame? Or an oxidizing flame? (for colored glass in particular)

jesnbec73 · #12 2024-08-11, 8:54am

No, chemically speaking I think it's perfectly neutral. I'm trying to get a friend of mine who is into HHO professionally to help me work on a torch system for glass working that will enable an extra line for oxygen for an oxidizing flame.

A reduction flame can be achieved by putting the flow through an acetone bubbler, or adding an additional source of carbon like propane. It's an easy fix if and would be a huge innovation if I could get some help with it. The properties of the flame are absolutely bizarre, it has an ambient temperature of only 200 and some odd F, until it comes into contact with another substance and then it can achieve temperatures high enough to sublimate tungsten.

It also has an almost intelligence to it, if you put soft glass in it, it gets hot enough for soft glass, if you put steel in it, it gets hot enough for steel, that enables it to weld dissimilar materials together like glass and rock for instance. I know that sounds nuts, but it has something to do with plasma physics and monoatomic states that is way beyond my pay grade. It really is incredible stuff though, I absolutely love it, and the only exhaust it produces is literally humidity, the cleanest water chemically possible.

KJohn · #13 2024-08-11, 5:38pm

JR you know it's about time for some pics, right?

jesnbec73 · #14 2024-08-11, 9:21pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by KJohn

JR you know it's about time for some pics, right?

I haven't been in the studio as much as I would like lately, but I will be getting back in there whether I like it or not pretty soon as I have recently offered to take on a part time student who is wanting to learn some beads etc. It's our oldest daughter's boyfriend, he's young and has a less than glamorous history... I am a little iffy on the whole deal but he's got a decent personality and seemed fascinated when I fired up the torch to show him what I do, we'll see how that goes. I'll make something and get some pics posted though, hopefully will survive the first few lessons with this kid

I already told him to start watching some youtube videos on making glass beads before he comes over, figured that might save me some time LOL

Listenup · #15 2024-08-23, 1:11pm

I mostly work on a HotHead, though a do have a dual gas torch and use it occasionally. I think of lampworking as my Zen and often tell my students it's my Zen, not a race. If you've got the HotHead on and you can't hear someone talking in the same room with you, it's up too high. That way your colors stay the same as they should be. I also make them start on yellow/red/clear, anything that changes color when it's hot - at least untill they get a good idea of judging the heat of the glass. I'm sure you'll get loads of other tips and things that will confuse the heck out of you. Slow it down till you get an idea of what's up with the glass, how it flows, etc.