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Tips, Techniques, and Questions -- Technical questions or tips

View Poll Results: Technique or design?
I have copied Tink 1 1.49%
I have copied Larry 0 0%
I have copied both 2 2.99%
I have copied neither, I have just used the techniques learned from them 64 95.52%
Voters: 67. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1  
Old 2008-12-12, 11:12am
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Default Technique or design: how do you figure it out?

I’m not a newbie, so I guess I should know the difference between the two but sometimes I cannot decide whether it’s a technique or a design…To some this might be obvious, so how do you how to figure it out each time ?

To illustrate my puzzlement, let me take an example : here is a blown vessel that I made a while back. I took a class from Tink Martin (thus the blown vessel) and I took a class from Larry Scott (thus the ivory and black lines from his topographic long bead).
I could also add that the topper is made with a technique that Diana East uses a lot, but that is the part I feel certain about it's a technique not a design.


So since it’s ok to use a technique but not if it is a design (that would be copying), what do you think ?
• I have copied Tink
• I have copied Larry
• I have copied both
• I have not copied them, I have just used the techniques learned from them
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  #2  
Old 2008-12-12, 11:16am
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i pick choice number 4.

your vessel is beautiful.
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  #3  
Old 2008-12-12, 11:16am
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Option four:

" I have not copied them, I have just used the techniques learned from them."

I am curious though. Why did you classify Diana East's technique as a technique but not Tink's or Larry's?
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  #4  
Old 2008-12-12, 11:20am
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I say #4.

To me a technique is a step or series of steps strung together to result in a certain 'look' or construction.

blowing a vessel is a technique
forming the cap the way you did is a technique
the white and black lines is a technique

The way you put them together is a design and that came all from YOU...nobody else.

~~Mary
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  #5  
Old 2008-12-12, 11:21am
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option 4 ...me too.
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  #6  
Old 2008-12-12, 11:27am
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Mary Beth,
This is exactely it: sometimes I know, sometimes I don't. For Diana, my decision towards technique was because I've seen other beadmakers using metal inserts with extra glass on it (like Sharon Peters) and so I figured out that the use of metal inserts could not only be a design, it had to be a technique. I hope I'm making sense here.

With Tink and Larry it was different... I'm using Larry's "thing", to make my own topographic vessel... and as far as Tink's specific shape of blown vessel is concerned, well like I said, it's a specific shape and I've shown my vessels to some beadmakers' friends and they have said: oh you're making vessels like Tink...

Thanks for the compliments Ali...
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  #7  
Old 2008-12-12, 12:11pm
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It looks to me like that design is all your own...and it totally rocks! Awesome vessel!
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  #8  
Old 2008-12-12, 12:11pm
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have you thought about contacting the artists that inspired this work to ask them their opinion? maybe hearing what they think would be helpful.
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  #9  
Old 2008-12-12, 12:23pm
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Tink makes little amphoriskoses, or small amphorae; it's a very, very classic shape and a natural one for vessels. She teaches a very effective technique for making small vessels, but she decorates them in her own distinctive way.

Here is a Roman amphoriskos:



Larry teaches a technique for making a particular pattern.

IMO, if your end result does not look distinctively like something Tink or Larry made, you're not copying a design.
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  #10  
Old 2008-12-12, 12:25pm
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One of the first things Tink talked to us in her Blown Vessel class was the "C" word . . . as she put it. We all had blank looks on our faces until she said "Copy" . . . then she proceeded to tell us that if she didn't want us to practice what we learned from her, then why would she bother teaching? She told us all to copy her all we want - to make vessels, to show them, to sell them.

I put this on all my listings for vessels –

"Special Credit
I learned from an incredible artist, Tink Martin, the technique of creating this vessel shape. Her generosity enables me to utilize this knowledge and offer vessels of my own to the general public with her blessing. Thank you, Tink!"

Just thought I would share that with you!
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  #11  
Old 2008-12-12, 12:36pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hayley View Post
One of the first things Tink talked to us in her Blown Vessel class was the "C" word . . . as she put it. We all had blank looks on our faces until she said "Copy" . . . then she proceeded to tell us that if she didn't want us to practice what we learned from her, then why would she bother teaching? She told us all to copy her all we want - to make vessels, to show them, to sell them!
I love this about her. so open and giving. she said this at our classes too
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  #12  
Old 2008-12-12, 12:41pm
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I'm good with my vote because I couldn't think of who Larry was to copy. I knew Scott, but I don't recall ever looking at his site so just maybe a picture in a book. So I can't comment on that. To me it looks like you took a technique and used it in your vessel.


As for Tink. It might be a copy but she wouldn't have an issue with it. I think what she tries to teach is her technique in case people are interested. I've not heard her claim the shape nor even the technique as off limits.

Well maybe to *some* people. Joke.
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  #13  
Old 2008-12-12, 2:08pm
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I still don’t know how you objectively figure out whether it is a technique or a design,….
I’ve just shown my vessel as an example, but I’d love to figure it out by myself as objectively as possible…
If I just look at the poll results so far, it looks like I’m a "nerd", since all the voters so far seem to see me as using techniques and not copying a design…
But it still seems to me that the situation is not all that clear.
Tink told to my class as well that it was ok to make vessels using the technique she taught us. So I should feel relaxed about making my own vessels, but I’m not always (I guess this is where some people would think I should go and see a shrink… LOL): it's not only Tink's ok that is important to me, it is how my work might be percieved by others fellow beadmakers too and what I feel about my own work.
Nancy said it might be a copy of Tink’s vessel and I didn’t take it wrong (I feel she could be not the only one feeling that way and also I was relieved that I wasn't not a complete idiot for having questions about that), and Ali said I should ask those teachers how they feel about it… but what I really want is to know for myself what the difference is between a design and a technique.
Pam Dugger in another thread said that what make things sometimes more complicated is that some people are getting techniques and designs confused…
So I was hoping for some communly shared definitions that could help me get the difference in some not so obvious cases… Any hints?
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Old 2008-12-12, 3:17pm
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OK...I'll play This is how I see it all:

I think it's common for people to look for a common link between something new and something they are familiar with. Most people here know Tink's work. I think it's entirely natural for someone to say "Oh, a Tink-esque vessel!) I would not have thought Tink made that vessel. From a technical standpoint, I can see the comparison being valid. Tink's vessels are flawless to everyone except her ( ) and yours has that same level of attention to detail and balance. That's not copying. That's just good craftsmanship.

Blowing the vessel at the end of a hollow mandrel is a technique. The shapes of Tink's vessels are design, although they are inspired by ancient amphorae. Outside inspiration can lead to truly amazing pieces of art. The colors of her vessels are designs. The surface decoration she chooses to use on a particular vessel is design, although the techniques to those surface decorations are...yep, techniques.

When new techniques are learned and shared, a bunch of different designs can come of them. With regards to your vessel, if we are getting technical about this, I would say elements of the design might be inspired by Tink and Larry, but the overall design is absolutely your own.

I think as you play more with the vessel shapes and the technique that you used for the surface decoration, you may find variations that you prefer, creating pieces that no longer have the elements of inspiration, if that's what you choose to do. That vessel, though, does not make me think of Tink or Larry...it just makes me think there is another artist that I need to keep a closer eye on

Stop stressing! Just make art and see where it takes you.
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Old 2008-12-12, 3:46pm
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I should add, though, that I do not feel that being inspired by another artist is a bad thing. When certain elements that are inspired by other artists are put together in new and unique ways, it becomes something new and exciting.
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Old 2008-12-12, 3:51pm
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I love that very thing about Tink! She has a talent and gifts it to whom ever wants it. I asked her a few questions when I first started lampworking nearly 5 years ago... well.... She answered the questions, gave wonderful advice and was a genuine friend right from the start. Tink is a true teacher in every sense of the word.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Hayley View Post
One of the first things Tink talked to us in her Blown Vessel class was the "C" word . . . as she put it. We all had blank looks on our faces until she said "Copy" . . . then she proceeded to tell us that if she didn't want us to practice what we learned from her, then why would she bother teaching? She told us all to copy her all we want - to make vessels, to show them, to sell them.

I put this on all my listings for vessels –

"Special Credit
I learned from an incredible artist, Tink Martin, the technique of creating this vessel shape. Her generosity enables me to utilize this knowledge and offer vessels of my own to the general public with her blessing. Thank you, Tink!"

Just thought I would share that with you!
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  #17  
Old 2008-12-12, 3:53pm
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Who have they copied?? I remember waaaaay back.. a younger miss Tinkie admiring my bottles (Wait.. not saying that she has copied me.. not at all)
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  #18  
Old 2008-12-12, 4:36pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heidi von Frozenfyre View Post
Who have they copied?? I remember waaaaay back.. a younger miss Tinkie admiring my bottles (Wait.. not saying that she has copied me.. not at all)

LOL
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  #19  
Old 2008-12-12, 6:51pm
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I think the problem here is that many people don't change any of the design elements when they learn a new technique. Make lots of copies. Then everyone gets mad at them because they are copying, which then confuses those more inventive/inspired students to start worrying about whether they too are copying design or if they are safely using techniques in their own design.

In this case I think you are quite clearly in the safely using learned techniques to make your own designs category.

Maybe this will help clarify...a technique is a method of application/manipulation used to achieve your end effect or design. Materials used, colors chosen, the final shapes achieved those are all elements of the design. The technique is simply how you manage to accomplish/assemble your design.
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  #20  
Old 2008-12-12, 8:49pm
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This is exactly (well, close anyway) to what I was going to say.
You use different techniques to get to the end point of a design.....Valerie

Quote:
Originally Posted by eidyn View Post
...a technique is a method of application/manipulation used to achieve your end effect or design. Materials used, colors chosen, the final shapes achieved those are all elements of the design. The technique is simply how you manage to accomplish/assemble your design.
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  #21  
Old 2008-12-12, 9:19pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pipyr View Post
I should add, though, that I do not feel that being inspired by another artist is a bad thing. When certain elements that are inspired by other artists are put together in new and unique ways, it becomes something new and exciting.
exactly. why would these teachers share their techniques if they didn't want you to be inspired. that seems ridiculous.
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Old 2008-12-13, 1:35am
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Thanks Pipyr, I thought a blown vessel was a technique, but after reading a lot of threads I’ve started to have doubts. (and thank you for the huge compliments, you’re so sweet).

Quote:
Originally Posted by eidyn View Post
Materials used, colors chosen, the final shapes achieved those are all elements of the design. The technique is simply how you manage to accomplish/assemble your design.
OK I get that, thanks, and it would mean in the case of my vessel that I have used some elements of their designs (Tink’s vessel shape and Larry’s black and white pattern) and I have combined them my own way and the end result is that neither Tink nor Larry would have made this piece… (and not just because I see a couple of black lines have smeared into the ivory… ).

I still feel that it’s not always easy to tell the difference between the 2, at least I don’t feel that each time I’ll be 100% positive about it in the future (whether I’m considering my beads or see other people’s work)

Thanks everybody for taking the time…
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Old 2008-12-13, 8:26am
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You could just keep posting your pictures and asking us Better yet, you could just mail the pieces to me for a...ummm...one-on-one consultation

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Old 2008-12-13, 8:52am
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I think it's gorgeous and it's all yours.
It may have a similar shape to the ones Tink teaches, but so do some of the ancient vessels in my local museum. It may have the black and white patterns of some of Larry's, but I've seen that in fabrics and other places. It may have a similar lid to Diane's, but I've seen something similar in other places too. Put all three together and they are definitely your own and quite lovely at that.

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  #25  
Old 2008-12-13, 9:22am
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I agree with everyone else, Sylvie, and now you have created your own unique design from techniques learned from several wonderful artists. Keep up the great work!!
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Old 2008-12-13, 10:21am
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So many people stated it so well, I don't have much to add

It's really nicely done, and I wouldn't call it a copy.
The shape is Tinkesque (as someone who's blown a lot of tiny vessels, I know that's the shape they "want" to be)....so if that shape were viewed as a copy...well, not many people would be making vessels.

so I see that as more technique- now Tink's filled globes are unique, and I would call that design.

A deisgn is complex, and has many elements. technique is pretty straightforward (not to say a given technique is easy). My understanding of copywrite law is that it must differ in at least 3 ways. If you start with a simple design, and change it in 3 ways, you have something different.

Now I'm not sure how well this law (or, to take it out of the legal arena, "rule of thumb") applies to complex design- but, maybe it does, if it is elements (e.g., shape, detail...)you are changing.

In any event, I don't see this as a copy either (and agree that Diana should be acknowledged at the same level, as her technique is rather unique, and contributed as much to the design)... but, that said, I would not look at that and say that it looked like a copy of anything she has done.

Apologies for the long winded answer.
I also think it's original, and very nicely done.
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Old 2008-12-13, 8:43pm
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Sylvie, if I were the teaching sort, you're the type of student I would want. You have utilized different design *elements* (that perhaps each instructor/artist you mentioned is known for), and made something unique instead of making an exact copy of one specific individual's work.

I agree with pandora. A technique is just one element of a design. For example, raking, pinching, making twisties, bubbles, shaping, adding metal inclusions, etc., are just techniques, but if you use all of these techniques together in one bead or series/set of beads, you have accomplished a design. And the more techniques/elements you use in one single bead, the more complex and unique it becomes - that is, unless you are making a carbon copy of someone else's bead using those exact same techniques in the same way. Does this make sense? And you haven't done that.

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  #28  
Old 2008-12-14, 12:36pm
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Thank you all for the compliments, they mean a lot to me even though I didn't post this vessel for that. But also thank you very much for all the details / perceptions you've given on what is considered a technique and what is considered a design: that's very precious information to me and it just makes things a little differently and changes my way of looking at lampwork in general and at my own work...


Quote:
Originally Posted by pipyr View Post
You could just keep posting your pictures and asking us Better yet, you could just mail the pieces to me for a...ummm...one-on-one consultation

Hey Pipyr, why not? By the way, I too am available for one-on-one consultation for any question about new piece you create...
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  #29  
Old 2008-12-14, 1:10pm
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Per Webster's...

technique
One entry found.
Main Entry: tech·nique
Pronunciation: \tek-ˈnēk\
Function: noun
Etymology: French, from technique technical, from Greek technikos
Date: 1817
1: the manner in which technical details are treated (as by a writer) or basic physical movements are used (as by a dancer) ; also : ability to treat such details or use such movements <good piano technique>
2 a: a body of technical methods (as in a craft or in scientific research) b: a method of accomplishing a desired aim


design[2]
One entry found.
Main Entry: 2design
Function: noun
Date: 1569
1 a: a particular purpose held in view by an individual or group <he has ambitious designs for his son> b: deliberate purposive planning <more by accident than design>
2: a mental project or scheme in which means to an end are laid down
3 a: a deliberate undercover project or scheme : plot bplural : aggressive or evil intent —used with on or against<he has designs on the money>
4: a preliminary sketch or outline showing the main features of something to be executed <the design for the new stadium>
5 a: an underlying scheme that governs functioning, developing, or unfolding : pattern , motif <the general design of the epic> b: a plan or protocol for carrying out or accomplishing something (as a scientific experiment) ; also : the process of preparing this
6: the arrangement of elements or details in a product or work of art
7: a decorative pattern <a floral design>
8: the creative art of executing aesthetic or functional designs
synonyms see intention, plan
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  #30  
Old 2008-12-15, 9:15am
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Cosmo Cosmo is offline
ManBearPig
 
Join Date: Jun 28, 2005
Location: Roanoke, VA
Posts: 8,540
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This is something my high school art teacher told me. It has stuck with me a long time...

"Technique" is what you do... "Style" is how you do it.
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