Propane in the House? NO! - Page 8

LazyLizard · #**211** 2006-07-30, 12:08am

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeAurelius

NO Do NOT put a BIOHAZARD sticker on it - you will have neighbors and the city on your butt. DO put a PROPANE sticker on it.

Howdy Mike and Dale! I have a rubbermaid cannister over my 60lb tank - outside of course - it has a flip-top lid (which I stick the hose in when I use it) and the bottom is cut off with several holes cut in the back for even more ventilation. Pretty much it looks like a trashcan, I read one of your posts earlier and saw where if there is a problem the fire dept. needs to see the tank so I thought I would get a Mapp sticker and put it on it, this is okay right? Where would I get one? Thanks! Jodi

Dale M. · #**212** 2006-07-30, 8:39am

Quote:

Originally Posted by LazyLizard

Howdy Mike and Dale! I have a rubbermaid cannister over my 60lb tank - outside of course - it has a flip-top lid (which I stick the hose in when I use it) and the bottom is cut off with several holes cut in the back for even more ventilation. Pretty much it looks like a trashcan, I read one of your posts earlier and saw where if there is a problem the fire dept. needs to see the tank so I thought I would get a Mapp sticker and put it on it, this is okay right? Where would I get one? Thanks! Jodi

Check local safety product suppliers (check yellow pages) or some on line sites, there are a bunch of sites that sell biohazard and other hazard stickers...

Quick GOOGLE search for "hazard signs LP gas" turned up...

http://www.compliancesigns.com/
http://www.prattsafety.com.au/safety_signs
http://www.emedco.com/prodGroupSTgrid.asp?dept_id=2021
http://www.graphicproducts.com/signs/signs023c.html

And many more...

I would think something as simple as "DANGER PROPANE" would be good as a "minimal" warning.... Propane has same properties as MAPP so its serves same purpose. Even if its not technically accurate.

Dale

LazyLizard · #**213** 2006-07-30, 5:53pm

Sweet! Thanks Dale! Jodi

danelady · #**214** 2006-07-31, 8:24am

I went to the ComplianceSigns.com site and ordered Adhesive "DANGER Propane" Stickers!
Here is my invoice FYI
Order Number: 7356 Quantity:Name:SKU:Each:Total:1ODE-5385 - PROPANE ODE-5385$12.00$12.00 Label 5x3.5 (4pk) [-5L] $12.00 Subtotal:$12.00

joey301 · #**215** 2006-08-15, 11:50am

Quote:

Originally Posted by daisydog7

In the past several weeks I have been reading about the dangers of having propane indoors, which I did. I work in my garage. I have moved my propane tank (around 20lb) outdoors. I am on a canal and my garage has flood vents on three sides. I have run the hose through one of these vents. The tank is right outside the garage, and the hose runs probably three feet to my torch. Now, if I understand correctly, if I unhook the hose at the end of each session, I am legal. Do I have to unhook at both ends, or only on the outdoors (the tank)? Will this be excessive wear and tear on the fittings and the hose?
I am presently using a Hothead, but am soon to switch to a Minor torch. I have all equipment except the oxygen generator and should have than within a month or two. Will the system using the Minor torch be a safer system. It will have a flashback arrestor but my present system does not.
This is all so confusing, and when I started making beads 6 months ago I didn't realize an indoor tank was illegal. Yes I have the Cindy Jenkins book.
One person posted hear that having an indoor tank that leaked would present a danger if someone turned a light on. I thought this gas was heavier than air and remained on the ground. If that is true, would a light on the ceiling ignite it? Outside I have an automatic light about 10 feet in the air, so is that a similar situation? Thanks for info, Pam

I have been reading this site for a while today and I am finding better safety info here than anywhere else I have looked. I use acetylene and I have the small MC tank in my basement. I am very concerned about safety and I have some questions:
1. Where can I go to find out exactly what I need to make my house safe while having the tank in the house?
2. I do have a window in the basemen, but who is the best group (plumbers, HVAC people) to get to come to my house and install an outside configuration?
3. I saw this here...isn't the wear and tear on the system from tightening and untightening the tank to take it outside and then back inside creating an unsafe situation due to wear and tear?
4. Are small tanks safer to use? Is there a size that is ok to be inside?
5. If I get in touch with some safety inspector, will they arrest me for having a tank in my house?
6. Can I get a rider on my house for additional insurance protection?

I am new to this group, and my primary interest is silver smithing, but this seems so appropriate to my concerns are there seems to be a very good discussion here. So thanks to all of you.
Joey

Dale M. · #**216** 2006-08-15, 4:15pm

Acetylene comes under different safety category than Propane/MAPP/Propylene. It is lighter than air there for it rises and dissipates in a room so if you have any ventilation its safer.... BUT I still do not recommend tank with anything flamable in basement or in rest of house for that matter... It should stay outside all the time. Period. Besides why would you want to lug tank(s) up and down stairs when ever you change tanks anyway...

http://zenstoves.net/MSDS/Acetylene.pdf

Tank and regulator fittings (threads) are made to be connected/disconnected when ever necessary. Its the nature of the beast. If you ever wear them out they are replaceable....

The only acceptable propane/MAPP for inside storage are the 1 pound tanks and NFPA stipulates only 2 inside at any time.....

IF you get in touch with safety inspector chances are he/she will not understand your questions and if you can't explain your situation satisfactorily to them they will probably not arrest you but will probably shut your work down till they are satisfied your have safe conditions.....

As who is best Plumber or HVAC personnel is like a coin toss, it all depends on whether the technician is capable or qualified to do what ever it is you want...

Dale

FourTailsLampwork · #**217** 2006-08-18, 7:32am

Okay, Mike and Dale, you will both be happy to know that this beginning beadmaker is changing her garage set-up because of this thread. My garage is attached (though separated from the house by a 11' square screened pass-though), so I don't want to keep the propane inside it. My garage has of course the car door, a regular door leading to the screened pass-through, which leads to the house, and on the other side, two windows. I had my table set up on the side of the garage nearest the door with the propane tank in a Rubbermaid container on the other side of the wall in the pass-through, but I am changing my set up to having the workstation on the window side, with the propane outside the window. I will run my Hot Head hose through the window and bleed lines and disconnect after every session (which I do anyway, because propane scares me green). (Plus the fan sits in the window and pulls fumes away from my face, and there's another fan as well, and the fan ensures that there is no pinching of the rubber line.) Plumbing in a line is not practical at this time because I have my house on the market, and as I look for a new house I am also looking with an eye toward safe lampworking sites. There (if I continue lampworking) I will either have a qualified plumber install the lines or my VERY capable and up-to-code working BIL do it (if I can ever drag him up to Georgia). The container is labeled--$9 for a sticker and $9 for shipping seemed excessive, so I downloaded an official propane warning image from the OSHA site, printed it on my color printer, and enclosed it in thin plastic (transparency film works great--in fact, I printed a couple stickers ON transparency film!) and taped that to the container.

My question is this: The pass through is totally ventilated and totally shaded, but the window side of the garage is also the side that gets full afternoon sun. Here in hot, humid Georgia enclosed containers may shade their contents, but even with proper ventilation the heat inside them can get quite high. So placing my BBQ tank in a vented Rubbermaid container might shield it from the direct sun, but not from the heat. How high ambient heat is too high? Will it make the tank explode?

A friend lost his wife recently in a freak fire--she plugged in a heating pad, dialled it up high, and it exploded in her face. The resulting fire took out the entire back of their house--and their pets. I had always cherished the fantasy that animals would get out of a burning house if a suitable door was provided--I always have a cat-door for mine--but reality is that they will often hunker down under something like a bed and die of smoke inhalation. So I ask because I don't want to be come a crispy critter, or lose any of my "children"--Mincot, Bellacoolah, Molly T., and of course the handicapable (i.e. paralyzed in rear) Welsh Corgi, Piglet.

Dale M. · #**218** 2006-08-18, 8:38am

Sorry to hear about your friend.....

At ambient temperature of the air surrounding the tank will definitely have a effect on internal pressure of tank . As propane heats it vaporizes more gas off the liquid in tank thusly increasing internal pressure. BUT think about this, there are thousands of tanks all over the world in harsh environments from freezing cold to blazing desert heat and there is very little problem with the tank bursting from the internal pressures.

This site will give you a chart as to what internal pressures are in tank at approximate ambient temperatures....

http://www.flameengineering.com/Propane_Info.html

Federal regulations require any tank to meet certain criteria and one is bursting pressure. I can't find exact data but at this time I know its quite high and there is no danger of your tank bursting from internal pressure unless there is some defect in manufacturing process when tank was made or it is severely rusted or damaged since its manufacture.

Here is huge DOCUMENT on propane tanks and valve.....

Propane council document

Buried deep in document is statements about pressure relieve valve in tank valve and its ability to release internal pressures if inter tank pressure become in excess of 240psi.... Remember venting propane from excess pressure in tank will cause propane gas to be in area of tank so it should have some free space (vented enclosure ok) so it can dilute into surrounding atmosphere to a level where it is not dangerous....

Dale

MikeAurelius · #**219** 2006-10-17, 12:32pm

-- bump --

Hayley · #**220** 2006-10-17, 2:12pm

Thank you, Mike, for bumming this thread up. It took a while to get through all eight pages but I read it all! I am upgrading from my HH and have been reading everything I could on safety - propane storage, ventilation, intake air, etc. I appreciate everyone's input and advice and want to thank you all for helping us newbies do things safely.

Mike, as soon as I draw up my studio layout, I will post something re: ventilation and ask for your advice. Still deciding on which torch - MiniCC, Bobcat, Minnow. . . there are so many choices. I will get an oxycon from Kimberly, a Glasscraft hood, get a stainless steel enclosure fabricated, use non-flexible ducting for ventilation, gets holes drilled for hood and propane pipe with two valves.

Boy, this hobby is a lot of work! . . . and I am loving it!

Hayley

MikeAurelius · #**221** 2006-10-17, 2:39pm

No problem Hayley. When I saw that someone was asking about this issue, I thought it was time for a bump.

Just let me know when you are ready!

allstar · #**222** 2006-10-20, 12:40pm

Mike, Dale and all...I feel very very lucky today (and overwhelmed)...I am at a point in the "set up", where i can do the BEST things when it comes to Safety. I read every word in this thread, and was awake most of the night, going over it. I appreciate the info so much and ONLY wish there was a "Checklist or Things to do first list for Beginners", It should be required reading at the top of the site (every site) and would listed all the "must figure out first" things. It would have given me much greater pause before starting and I have been reserching this for over a year.
For some of us it's much easier to look at the "pretty beads" and glass, our creative side takes over and we buy all the "stuff" and then, worry about the rest later. Not good.
This is not a craft/hobby you "jump" into and I wonder how many would if they realized they were not in a place where they could or should be messing with propane.
Well my new motto, Better to learn than Burn... you're welcome to use it

, maybe it should be the title of the "Beginner To do (first) list"!
Vickie

Dale M. · #**223** 2006-10-20, 4:47pm

Dale

MikeAurelius · #**224** 2006-10-21, 4:18am

Thank you Vickie - we try hard.

I'm glad you brought this up actually - it's one of the things I routinely bang my head up against the wall over. This is not an inexpensive hobby. And unfortunately, when someone gets 'the bug', they want to jump in and start producing, and completely overlook the safety factor.

Safety isn't cheap. Especially if you have to something over to make it right.

For example: plan on spending a minimum of about $4-500 on ventilation. Apart from kilns and torches, ventilation is the most expensive item of the safety-related issues. Eyewear is next.

Fire extinguishers, fire blankets (does anyone have one? I do!), first aid kits with special burn equipment. Propane safety. Oxygen safety.

The list goes on and on.

PixieFireBeads · #**225** 2006-10-28, 3:41pm

Okay, so I have to admit I am one of those people who was not going to change my setup no matter what anyone said. Propane in the house and an open window with a fan. That was it, I was set, until my husband said he smelled burnt propane. He has COPD and while I can be cavalier about my health I can't be about his.

So today we put a fan in the wall with a vent cover and a register, at 300 cfm it should change the air in my room one time every 5 minutes. The fan we picked up is better than any of the hoods we were looking at. We've got it set up optimally and I moved my tank outside. I figured if I was going to make big holes in my new siding a little hole didn't matter.

Now I'm wondering if I need to do anything to protect the propane tank. There is an area outside of town where people use propane predominantly for everything and I see these big tanks sitting out there without cover or anything and they seem to be fine no matter what the weather. I'm sure the tank will be okay but I'm worried about my regulator. Is there anything I need to do to protect it?

Any comments would be appreciated, thanks.

Ez

Edits: He says is 500 cfm not 300, I got that backwards. But I just told him I thought maybe it still needed to be bigger, he said we can add another fan.

MikeAurelius · #**226** 2006-10-30, 5:00am

Use an outside storage box - Rubbermaid makes them, as do others.

Using room air changes is not a good way to calculate ventilation - for our purposes (lampworking), you should have a hood of some kind to trap the fumes and exhaust them outside. CFM is based on the size of the hood, not the size of the room.

Using just an exhaust fan in a window does not remove the fumes in front of you and from the torch - it just pulls the air from the general room...

swanseafarm · #**227** 2006-10-30, 6:53am

Mike and/or Dale,

I have been told that getting fresh air into the room while torching is as important as the exhaust, and if you have to choose one, fresh air intake should be done first. Right now I am revamping my studio space which is now in my living room and is about 20' x 26' and very open. I have fresh air circulating and coming directly from outside, and my Oxy con is run outside. The propane tank is ALWAYS outside. My exhaust to the outside is not hooked up at this time. I won't be able to hook up the exhaust fan for a couple more months. I typically torch 2 - 3 hours at a time sometimes 3 times a day and probably 4 - 5 days a week. So far I am not ever smelling gas or getting headaches or other negative symptoms. I know this is not a safe scenario but there is nothing I can do about it for the time being. Is drawing in all the fresh air from outside as possible while working under these less than desirable conditions keeping me as safe as possible? I know several other lampworkers that work under similar conditions that have no problems. They all work in big open areas with lots of windows and fresh air being pulled in constantly. I don't want to push my luck though.

MikeAurelius · #**228** 2006-10-30, 7:37am

Bonnie - that's a popular misconception, I'm afraid.

Exhaust should always be done first. You can always open a door or window to get fresh air in, but you can't get all the bad stuff OUT without a good vent system.

A lot of times, it is realy easy to just do both at the same time - you are running ducts for the exhaust, and you have all the materials and tools available at the same time. Ducting for intake should only run about 25-30% of the exhaust ducting (roughly speaking).

I would strongly encourage you to reconsider hooking up the exhaust system, even if you have to (temporarily) run flex duct and out a nearby window - SOME exhaust is better than none.

The biggest issue that you are contending with is NOX (nitrogen oxides). These have a very distinctive sulphur/skunk like odor, but you don't notice them while you are torching - it will be people who walk into the room from outside who will notice it first.

NOX will affect your lungs, sinus membranes, and may also give you a good case of 'red eye'.

You have to collect and draw these fumes out of the room and outside -- simply circulating them around the room may temporarily dispurse them, but they will build up in concentration and then you will start to get ill.

swanseafarm · #**229** 2006-10-30, 7:57am

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeAurelius

Bonnie - that's a popular misconception, I'm afraid.

Exhaust should always be done first. You can always open a door or window to get fresh air in, but you can't get all the bad stuff OUT without a good vent system.

A lot of times, it is realy easy to just do both at the same time - you are running ducts for the exhaust, and you have all the materials and tools available at the same time. Ducting for intake should only run about 25-30% of the exhaust ducting (roughly speaking).

I would strongly encourage you to reconsider hooking up the exhaust system, even if you have to (temporarily) run flex duct and out a nearby window - SOME exhaust is better than none.

The biggest issue that you are contending with is NOX (nitrogen oxides). These have a very distinctive sulphur/skunk like odor, but you don't notice them while you are torching - it will be people who walk into the room from outside who will notice it first.

NOX will affect your lungs, sinus membranes, and may also give you a good case of 'red eye'.

You have to collect and draw these fumes out of the room and outside -- simply circulating them around the room may temporarily dispurse them, but they will build up in concentration and then you will start to get ill.

Thanks Mike.
I'll certainly reprioritize the studio revamp ASAP. I can't afford any more lung issues...already have chronic asthma...thank goodness I haven't had any bad symptoms from lampworking and I sure don't want to risk getting ill.

MikeAurelius · #**230** 2006-10-30, 7:59am

No problem Bonnie, that's what Dale and I are here for.

PixieFireBeads · #**231** 2006-10-30, 11:26am

Thanks for the feedback. I'm going to the Home Depot to look for a storage box this morning.

In regards to the fan, it's not a fan in the window. It's a fan in the wall directly in front of the torch. When the door is shut a vacuum is created and pulls air from a window across the room. We tried it out last night, with both the torch and the kiln going; our daughter who generally screams about the smell of anything walked in and didn't even realize I had the torch on.

When we started we looked at hoods and didn't feel there was enough power, of course we were just looking at kitchen hoods. We saw an exhaust setup for Island Glass and Box in a video and decided to call the grow guy to get a good fan to do something similar to what she did.

Is it optimal, probably not. For the moment we are pleased that it is better than it was and we've been discussing hoods since before the project was complete (which is when I actually started researching it and found the wealth of information you guys have here about the subject). Yes, I'm a tard, never professed not to be, I prefer looking at the pretty pictures of beads!

I'm sure our *second* ventilation project isn't far off and will be more conventional. In any event I'm glad to get the damned propane out of the house!

Jim Moore Tools · #**232** 2006-10-31, 10:15am

Not only is propane dangerous so are unchained oxygen bottles. If you knock one over with out the cap on it there is a chance that the top will shear off. This is spectacular, most often it acts like a rocket clearing a nice path and shooting through brick walls. They can also disintegrate into little pieces of flying metal but I think this is rare. Always keep the cap on the bottle when it is not in use, it does not matter if it is empty. The valve is fragile and bottles do explode when being filled think about the next person to have the bottle or the person who has to fill it up. Chain your bottles it is like wearing a seat belt. Jim

Dale M. · #**233** 2006-10-31, 11:07am

Good point, Jim.

Dale

janetcameron · #**234** 2006-11-01, 7:44am

OK - I am new and just learning, and have the BBQ tank in my cellar. I DO have propane outside that I use for cooking. Will my propane company know what to do to run a line for my torch? I have been reading about one shut off valve outside and another by the torch. How do I do this? Is there something that describes exactly what I need done? THanks. I really appreciate these threads and read them religiously.

MikeAurelius · #**235** 2006-11-01, 7:47am

I would suggest that you have the propane company do this work for you. They know the requirements for such types of installations and can do it safely.

It can also be done by a plumber, but I'd suggest you talk to your propane company first.

janetcameron · #**236** 2006-11-01, 8:07am

Thanks

Dale M. · #**237** 2006-11-01, 8:55am

Quote:

Originally Posted by janetcameron

OK - I am new and just learning, and have the BBQ tank in my cellar. I DO have propane outside that I use for cooking. Will my propane company know what to do to run a line for my torch? I have been reading about one shut off valve outside and another by the torch. How do I do this? Is there something that describes exactly what I need done? THanks. I really appreciate these threads and read them religiously.

You may want to look at this information resourse....

http://www.artglassanswers.com/forum...opic.php?t=208
http://www.artglassanswers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9

Dale

Bob Torbett · #**238** 2006-11-13, 11:28am

Just to show some of the problems of leaking propane. I had a customer in the home improvement store where I work part time. He had a propane leak and finally tracked it down to a crack in the fitting to the tank. Had that been inside his rv, he may not be here today to talk about it. The -O- ring on the fitting was worn out and he over tightened the fitting to the tank causing it to crack without his knowing about it. I may be wrong, but I think this is just one of many issues that caused the change-over to the new style connections for propane.

Bob

evolvingBeau · #**239** 2006-11-17, 11:31am

The need to keep propane gas tanks outside is made very clear in this thread, but it's all null and void if you don't regularly check your plumbing/hoses for leaks and/or don't remember to always shut off the gas at the tank when you're not working.
Having the tank outside solves the exploding TANK issue but if you have a leak you're still pumping flammable gas into an enclosed space, which is the way that explosions happen in the first place...LEAKS..
You can buy leak detector solution (just a surfactant liquid with a swab in the bottle) or use some little really soapy water swabbed liberally around the thread area of each and every connection looking for any bubbles. You will either need to tighten, add teflon tape or replace any leaky connections.
You also want to check to make sure your valves on the torch itself are closing properly, this is all just as important (if not more-so) as where you keep your P-tank.
If this has already been mentioned then good, there are so many pages in this thread that repetition is not a bad thing.
Beau

Dale M. · #**240** 2006-11-17, 3:17pm

Good argument for practice of bleeding lines down when done with torch session .. Ensures tanks are really tuned OFF at end of session...

Dale