Lampwork Etc.
 
Send a PM to CorriDawn!

LE Live Chat

Enter Live Chat

No users in chat


Frantz Art Glass & Supply

Beads of Courage


 

Go Back   Lampwork Etc. > Library > Tips, Techniques, and Questions

Tips, Techniques, and Questions -- Technical questions or tips

View Poll Results: Which should I get, press or roller?
Press 9 3.20%
Roller 158 56.23%
Eyeball it, baby. 114 40.57%
Voters: 281. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #31  
Old 2011-02-17, 8:31pm
Kalera's Avatar
Kalera Kalera is offline
I'm a lilac!
 
Join Date: Jun 09, 2005
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 8,793
Default

I can make round beads without a shaping tool, but for certain kinds of beads such as florals with many layers, a marble mold is just the thing for getting the whole thing rounded without distorting the blossoms. Leaves nice puckers too.
__________________
-Kalera

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
*
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 2011-02-17, 9:21pm
Kevan's Avatar
Kevan Kevan is offline
Entropy increasing....
 
Join Date: Nov 12, 2005
Location: In a box of paints
Posts: 25,098
Default

Thanks for the link to your tut, Lisi. Those brown beads are sooo cool!

I'm thinking the CG roller because it's got multiple sizes. I was thinking of getting a marble thingie, but they mostly just come one size and I do like the mandrel "trough".
__________________
"I am an artist… I am here to live out loud." Emile Zola
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 2011-02-17, 10:14pm
LisaF's Avatar
LisaF LisaF is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 31, 2005
Location: Elk Grove, CA
Posts: 2,127
Default

Kevan - I really like the CG roller for getting consistent sized beads.

__________________
Lisa Fletcher

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 2011-02-18, 5:23am
Ravenesque Ravenesque is offline
Naysayer
 
Join Date: Sep 22, 2009
Posts: 1,203
Default

Those are gorgeous colors!

Intriguing, I do mine without any tools, and yes they roll around ask me how many are under cabinets haha! I basically do what Lorraine posted. Actually a combo of what Lisi and Lorraine posted.
What I'm wondering, I know Lisi was on a HH for awhile, myself also. So, wondering if those that 'can't' by hand didn't work very long on a HH or not at all?

I think it teaches you patience for one but also since it's not as hot and 'slower' so you learn heat control and gravity, if that's a factor? I mean, glass wants to be round (ever make a barrel etc and heat too much it starts to round up?), so it's natural once you find that aha factor. As far as even size, I do graduated sets and same size, but again as Lorraine posted, I go by how many wraps I do basically.

Not downing those that do, whatever speeds you up, I'm just an insomniac thinking aloud.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 2011-02-18, 10:27am
ellabeads's Avatar
ellabeads ellabeads is offline
GabysGlassWorks
 
Join Date: Feb 06, 2011
Location: Canadian girl living in Kentucky
Posts: 276
Default

Thanks for posting these great tip/tutorials on making a round/spherical bead. I am a newbie (2 months of torching) on a hot head. I think I've pretty much got the donut shape down so now I will practice making a round bead. I have no presses, rollers, etc so must do everything by eyeballing it. My dots are ok. They are improving at least. Stringer application sucks. I actually made some hearts that were ok. Figuring what glass goes nicely together is tough for me too. So many things to learn and try it's wonderful!!
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 2011-02-18, 11:06pm
Moth Moth is offline
Mary Lockwood
 
Join Date: Jun 21, 2005
Location: Boonies
Posts: 5,831
Default

I get a more true 'round' just doing them with heat and gravity, but the cg beadroller is round enough for me and I like how the ends look. I voted for roller. Added benefit is consistent sizing. Before, I'd have to make 15 beads to get 10 that matched. Now I just have to make 10.

If you have a metal doming block you can use that to see how you like the feel of it. You aren't really using the cavity to shape the bead...you are using the rim--just like with a marble mold. That is what I used until I got the bead roller. I ordered the bead roller for all the different shapes that came on it but find myself mostly using the round anyway.

~~Mary
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 2011-02-19, 1:06am
Hase's Avatar
Hase Hase is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 24, 2010
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 11
Default

I love my CG Roller - not only the round one but other shapes as well. It really helps make them all the same shape and size.
Cheers, Beatrice
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 2011-02-19, 1:05pm
Lisi's Avatar
Lisi Lisi is offline
one day at a time
 
Join Date: Jun 27, 2005
Location: We are MOVING!!!
Posts: 8,319
Default

Hey Kevan, thanks for the compliment on the brown beads!

Those were HH beads but I did like making them better with the oxy/propane set up. Just gets the job done faster, and I get them rounder with a slight recess to the holes easier than I did on the HH.
__________________
You live in a world of money. Money means choices. No money, no choices. Welcome to reality.
Melody (Marlee Matlin) from Switched at Birth
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 2011-02-19, 3:30pm
PurpleCatJewels's Avatar
PurpleCatJewels PurpleCatJewels is offline
Certified Thread Killer
 
Join Date: Aug 11, 2008
Location: Disneyland is my backyard
Posts: 501
Default

I use a CG roller, a marble mold, and I find myself using the top part of my CAttwalk crunch press as a roller to make egg shapes and such.

I use a CG for bagel-shaped rounds as well—I could just eyeball them because I'm OCD enough to count EVERY round of glass I put on.

I find a roller indispensable for getting an even size/shape on embellished beads.
__________________
~Rachelle
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 2011-02-20, 12:02am
Kevan's Avatar
Kevan Kevan is offline
Entropy increasing....
 
Join Date: Nov 12, 2005
Location: In a box of paints
Posts: 25,098
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LisaF View Post
Kevan - I really like the CG roller for getting consistent sized beads.

Come on, Lisa, we know you just raise your eyebrow to the glass and it does whatever you want it to.
__________________
"I am an artist… I am here to live out loud." Emile Zola
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 2011-02-20, 4:47am
Ekkie's Avatar
Ekkie Ekkie is offline
Mad about Glass
 
Join Date: Nov 29, 2005
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 1,052
Default

I use a cgbeadroller for smaller round beads and a marble mould with multiple sizes for larger rounds. Love them both.
__________________
Jenn

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
[url]

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 2011-02-20, 8:29am
alb6094's Avatar
alb6094 alb6094 is offline
I'm kinda biz-EE
 
Join Date: Aug 08, 2007
Location: Arlington, TX
Posts: 3,610
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevan View Post
Come on, Lisa, we know you just raise your eyebrow to the glass and it does whatever you want it to.
It's a Spock thang.
__________________
Astrid


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
*
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
*
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 2011-02-20, 1:21pm
Lisi's Avatar
Lisi Lisi is offline
one day at a time
 
Join Date: Jun 27, 2005
Location: We are MOVING!!!
Posts: 8,319
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevan View Post
Come on, Lisa, we know you just raise your eyebrow to the glass and it does whatever you want it to.
Oops, wrong Lisa! She was talking about the other Lisa. LOL

I'm Lisi to just select few and Lisa to most.
__________________
You live in a world of money. Money means choices. No money, no choices. Welcome to reality.
Melody (Marlee Matlin) from Switched at Birth

Last edited by Lisi; 2011-02-20 at 1:24pm.
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 2011-02-20, 2:03pm
Troll Lover's Avatar
Troll Lover Troll Lover is offline
Gimme that silver glass!
 
Join Date: Oct 12, 2007
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 3,988
Default

I love the CG beadroller too, as well for beads that perfectly fit in the cavity as for beads that are larger, I then use it to roll my bead on top to make it nice and round . Works especially well with the chunky big round beads I make .



This is a big hollow, which I rolled in the CG marver:


Seriously, I know you should be able to make good round beads as a beadmaker. It's the basics, right? I made a hundred of them in the beginning but now, it's just so very easy to use a roller. Always thesame sized and with some practise also good beadholes.
__________________
Anouk
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

MY NEW E-TUTORIAL:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 2011-02-20, 3:28pm
Lisi's Avatar
Lisi Lisi is offline
one day at a time
 
Join Date: Jun 27, 2005
Location: We are MOVING!!!
Posts: 8,319
Default

Do any of you have trouble with these rollers ruining the glossiness on the surface of your beads? I've had graphite mar the finish on one too many in the past, so I really don't like to take chances with it. Especially with transparents and frits. Returning these beads to heat the surface may get rid of chill marks, but the tiny pits never go away completely. They just bubble and get worse most of the time. I've done everything possible, low gentle heat, back of the flame, you name it. The pits stay.

Just wondering.
__________________
You live in a world of money. Money means choices. No money, no choices. Welcome to reality.
Melody (Marlee Matlin) from Switched at Birth
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 2011-02-20, 3:37pm
tammydownunder's Avatar
tammydownunder tammydownunder is offline
offically down under
 
Join Date: Dec 22, 2005
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 3,131
Default

The only color I've noticed problems with is turquoise and if I work it cool, it's not too bad
__________________
Tammy

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 2011-02-22, 5:53am
Moth Moth is offline
Mary Lockwood
 
Join Date: Jun 21, 2005
Location: Boonies
Posts: 5,831
Default

I haven't had any trouble with surface marring either.

The cgrollers are very high quality graphite and there is a difference. Maybe the marver you used before wasn't as high quality graphite?? Not sure what the problem is exactly. I've used the same cheapo marver since I got my starter kit and don't have a pitting problem. Well, some of the frits will pit, but they do that for me whether I've marvered them or not.

Maybe you were over-tooling. Is that a word? LOL You can't keep marvering and then reheating over and over again. You chill the surface and make it easier to boil the outer skin of the bead and cause pits. That would happen with a marver of any material though- not just graphite.

~~Mary
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 2011-03-03, 12:08pm
wd2crv's Avatar
wd2crv wd2crv is offline
Heart of Flame
 
Join Date: Apr 28, 2010
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 163
Default

Jonibird, I'm a newbie and would love to hear what you have to say... I spent the day trying to make rounds in the ways mentioned above and it did work (thanks to Lisi and Lorraine), although I ended up with lots of bubbles. Is your way different?
__________________
Darryle
If you wish to learn the highest truth, begin with the alphabet - Japanese Proverb



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 2011-03-03, 3:17pm
tnehlers's Avatar
tnehlers tnehlers is offline
Melting
 
Join Date: Jul 15, 2007
Location: Fl
Posts: 1,422
Default

I also use my press as a roller, so I voted roller. I have the ribbed round roller as well. Just for the record though, I don't usually actually roll. I heat, press, lift, turn, heat, press, lift, turn. I find it easier to manipulate the glass that way but then again, I've always been an oddball.
__________________
Theresa "T" Ehlers
Scorpion, EX20, M15

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
~
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
~
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
~
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

SRA Member #E20
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 2011-03-03, 10:43pm
alb6094's Avatar
alb6094 alb6094 is offline
I'm kinda biz-EE
 
Join Date: Aug 08, 2007
Location: Arlington, TX
Posts: 3,610
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tnehlers View Post
I also use my press as a roller, so I voted roller. I have the ribbed round roller as well. Just for the record though, I don't usually actually roll. I heat, press, lift, turn, heat, press, lift, turn. I find it easier to manipulate the glass that way but then again, I've always been an oddball.
Not an oddball at all, that's sort of the way I do it too although once the glass is firmed up a bit then I roll it. I totally get the press/lift/turn/heat process.
__________________
Astrid


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
*
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
*
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #51  
Old 2011-03-03, 10:47pm
zen-mom's Avatar
zen-mom zen-mom is offline
"Sinners have soul too"
 
Join Date: Jun 26, 2005
Location: The beachy part of So Cal
Posts: 4,258
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalera View Post
I use a marble mold as a roller... so I'd say a roller.
This one ^^
__________________
Donna

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
*
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
*
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
*
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 2011-05-17, 8:32am
Lisi's Avatar
Lisi Lisi is offline
one day at a time
 
Join Date: Jun 27, 2005
Location: We are MOVING!!!
Posts: 8,319
Default

I just have to think this is funny now! I guess after nine years of making beads that I'm from the "old school" because I don't believe in using only these tools for making spherical round beads. (Larry Scott doesn't use them at all!) So what is funny to me is that when I was a newbie on Wetcanvas and Corina came out with the lentil press tool, the "old school" folks were very critical about the use of tools to make the lentil shapes. They went as far as describing their own lentil beads in their ebay auctions as "hand formed with hand tools and without the use of molds". Hey, any of you remember that?? hehe

They insisted that a person wasn't really a true lampwork artist if they felt they had to press beads out of a mold. Well, of course, being new and excited and crazy about Corina's beads, I didn't pay no mind to that attitude! So, I probably come off to some as having an attitude also, when it comes down to making round beads from these tools. Well, I'm not really against them, but the "old school" I'm from says this:

Learn how to make your spherical rounds from good old fashioned heat and gravity, and THEN go buy your roller tool/marble mold, whatever they have that you think you need. You could then use the roller tool to assist you in shaping the bead to push the glass gently in a way so the holes will dimple in a little, which is nice. I've used a marble mold to do that.

Trust me, you will become an even better beadmaker if you do it this way. Why? Because a true round spherical bead must have a near perfect footprint. That footprint is pretty wide, and it's just a hair under the width of the bead! If you don't get this straight first, then the beads that you roll out of those molds are going to have sub-quality shapes and holes. Because you didn't get the shape right to begin with.

Are you guys making donut rounds and then rolling them in these molds to get them round?? If you are and you are having problems with the holes, then that's why. Squishing a bead to widen the footprint can cause a lot of things to happen - breaking the release so you have a stuck bead, making the shape "off" and once done, you can't fix that footprint, and uneven holes. I have a tutorial on making spherical rounds in the free tutorials section of the forum. I think Larry Scott's tutorial on making a "round round bead" is in Cindy Jenkins' third book, "Beads of Glass". Is that the name of the book?? I have had mine packed away since the hurricane in 2006, so I forgot, sorry!

Anyway, rollers and these other tools are nice and you should buy one, but I really think you need to learn how to make a spherical round first before you buy the tool. Just some experience speaking!
__________________
You live in a world of money. Money means choices. No money, no choices. Welcome to reality.
Melody (Marlee Matlin) from Switched at Birth
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 2011-05-17, 2:49pm
Kevan's Avatar
Kevan Kevan is offline
Entropy increasing....
 
Join Date: Nov 12, 2005
Location: In a box of paints
Posts: 25,098
Default

I got a combo marble and bead roller for a fraction of the cost of a bead roller. I haven't made any beads with it yet, but I'm anxious to.
__________________
"I am an artist… I am here to live out loud." Emile Zola
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 2011-05-18, 2:21am
swamper's Avatar
swamper swamper is offline
Who me?
 
Join Date: Jun 15, 2005
Location: Hagerstown, Indiana
Posts: 2,284
Default

Lisi, WORD!
__________________
From the Perimeter of the Great Dismal Swamp
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 2011-05-18, 9:13am
theglasszone's Avatar
theglasszone theglasszone is offline
I speak Murrini!
 
Join Date: Oct 12, 2006
Location: In a Glass House, CA
Posts: 9,170
Default

Oh, what a great thread Kevan! I've had this same problem/question for FOREVER!!! I don't know if it's because of the radiant heat of the Hot Head but it seems no matter what I try and do "free hand", my beads always want to pull into "donut" shapes when flame polishing and doing the final through-and-through deep heat!

I'm seriously thinking I need me a graphite bead roller; maybe this one, since I LOVE to do just about everything on a 3/16" mandrel (BR-2801):
http://www.cgbeads.com/SET_PICS/n2801_600.jpg

Looking forward to seeing how you do with whatever you ended up with!
__________________
~DeAnne~
I've got a murrini for that,'ya know!
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


"Only a fool rushes to his own demise..." ~Zorro
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 2011-05-18, 9:24am
JanithS JanithS is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 18, 2009
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 168
Default

I totally agree with you that we must have the ability to make round beads without the aid of beadrollers or presses. My first years were spent learning how to control the heat and glass, and it wasn't easy. Since then I have purchased beadrollers, first the rounds then on to other shapes. I believe that having the beadrollers gave me the confidence to try other shapes especially focals. I can now make bicones, ovals, discs and lentils without too much difficulty. I don't think I would have ventured into these shapes without the beadrollers, especially when I first started using them. Now, I find I don't really need the beadrollers too much except for the outside edge. So, I'm using my beadrollers as a curved marver, as opposed to shaper.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lisi View Post
I just have to think this is funny now! I guess after nine years of making beads that I'm from the "old school" because I don't believe in using only these tools for making spherical round beads. (Larry Scott doesn't use them at all!) So what is funny to me is that when I was a newbie on Wetcanvas and Corina came out with the lentil press tool, the "old school" folks were very critical about the use of tools to make the lentil shapes. They went as far as describing their own lentil beads in their ebay auctions as "hand formed with hand tools and without the use of molds". Hey, any of you remember that?? hehe

They insisted that a person wasn't really a true lampwork artist if they felt they had to press beads out of a mold. Well, of course, being new and excited and crazy about Corina's beads, I didn't pay no mind to that attitude! So, I probably come off to some as having an attitude also, when it comes down to making round beads from these tools. Well, I'm not really against them, but the "old school" I'm from says this:

Learn how to make your spherical rounds from good old fashioned heat and gravity, and THEN go buy your roller tool/marble mold, whatever they have that you think you need. You could then use the roller tool to assist you in shaping the bead to push the glass gently in a way so the holes will dimple in a little, which is nice. I've used a marble mold to do that.

Trust me, you will become an even better beadmaker if you do it this way. Why? Because a true round spherical bead must have a near perfect footprint. That footprint is pretty wide, and it's just a hair under the width of the bead! If you don't get this straight first, then the beads that you roll out of those molds are going to have sub-quality shapes and holes. Because you didn't get the shape right to begin with.

Are you guys making donut rounds and then rolling them in these molds to get them round?? If you are and you are having problems with the holes, then that's why. Squishing a bead to widen the footprint can cause a lot of things to happen - breaking the release so you have a stuck bead, making the shape "off" and once done, you can't fix that footprint, and uneven holes. I have a tutorial on making spherical rounds in the free tutorials section of the forum. I think Larry Scott's tutorial on making a "round round bead" is in Cindy Jenkins' third book, "Beads of Glass". Is that the name of the book?? I have had mine packed away since the hurricane in 2006, so I forgot, sorry!

Anyway, rollers and these other tools are nice and you should buy one, but I really think you need to learn how to make a spherical round first before you buy the tool. Just some experience speaking!
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old 2011-05-18, 11:38am
ellyloo's Avatar
ellyloo ellyloo is offline
Ellyloo-YAH!
 
Join Date: Aug 01, 2006
Location: Port Colborne
Posts: 2,775
Default

once i got a system down making round beads in a bead roller, I got a much better handle on how spherical beads are shaped up.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old 2011-05-31, 11:44am
CreativeSpirit's Avatar
CreativeSpirit CreativeSpirit is offline
Creative Spirit
 
Join Date: Oct 21, 2005
Location: Vancouver Island, BC
Posts: 358
Default

I have both, but prefer the roller by far!

Peace Wendy
Reply With Quote
  #59  
Old 2011-07-25, 12:08pm
Mountain Snail's Avatar
Mountain Snail Mountain Snail is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 08, 2010
Posts: 855
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tammydownunder View Post
Yep, Round beads. The graphite rollers are so simple to use. If you have too much glass, move to the larger hole. Too little, add more.

I also have found them to be a godsend when I'm encasing. Often times the encasing goes bagel shaped and with the bead roller, you can easily get them back to round.
This.
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old 2011-08-01, 8:49pm
Ofilia's Avatar
Ofilia Ofilia is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 21, 2005
Posts: 1,897
Smile

CG BEADROLLER!!!!! Been there-done-that on the make a bunch by eye-balling to creat matching beads. Bottom line is I suck at round beads, and they bore me to make them. I don't have the patience to be a good, consistant set maker. My hats' off to those who can do them well.

That said, for production, consistency and speed, the roller is a god-send! Horrah for Donna!! Her graphite quality is like no other.
__________________
Ofilia Cinta


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump




All times are GMT -7. The time now is 3:40pm.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Your IP: 52.207.218.95