Mapp frustration!

[Ibeadza]

I am using a HH torch with Mapp gas and am experiencing the usual frustrations and costs. I am living on a Spanish island which is limiting my options. The bulk fuel tanks here all contain butane. I'm sure I read that butane does not burn hot enough. There is no domestic piped gas here either. I feel I have hit a wall but I'm sure there must be a solution even if it means changing my torch. Any suggestions?

[cadia]

A hothead can be used with propane too. Try a small canister first to find out how it works for you.

[Dale M.]

Butane mixed with air has a flame temperature of 3900° F. (2093° C.)
Propane mixed with air has a flame temperature of 3800° F. (2148° C.)

I don't think butane as a fuel is a problem, it is a plus as being hotter than propane. Only "condition" may be the of the purity of the gas available to you.

According to my reference material Butane or Propane gas is actually a hotter fuel when mixed with air as compared to MAPP - 2680° F. (1471° C.)

Dale

[Ibeadza]

I'm coming to the conclusion that you can not use bulk fuel butane with the Hot Head torch. I also asked on the Wet Canvas forum and for anyone interested in a more technical explanation why butane is not suitable, here is the link.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=410867

The search for propane continues!

[Dale M.]

I must apologise as I gave some information in error. Butane is not a good fuel for a HH torch. I was under assumption that butane had same pressure scale as propane, but I was wrong. Seems butane does NOT have sufficient pressure to fire a HH torch successfully. Sorry for any confusion I may have caused you.

Dale

[tabcaver]

I'm finding that buying MAPP in bulk in the Cincinnati area has become difficult. One sourse told me it's being phased out and replaced with propylene gas (said it burns hotter). Any thoughts about using propylene gas with a HH.

[Dale M.]

Propylene is perfectly acceptable for HH use... I suspect the distributor you are using does not want to handle MAPP because of low demand.... MAPP is a major gas for industrial uses, I doubt it will be phased out any time soon...

Dale

[Dennis Brady]

Originally Posted by Dale M.

Propylene is perfectly acceptable for HH use... I suspect the distributor you are using does not want to handle MAPP because of low demand.... MAPP is a major gas for industrial uses, I doubt it will be phased out any time soon...

Dale

What are your thoughts on trying to run a HH on natural gas?

[Dale M.]

Will probably never be possible...........

Hot heads require fuel at a pressure of at least 70psi plus to operate.......This is why it is always stated that a Hot Head requires "full tank pressure" to operate... At about 70° f. tank pressure is about 120psi.......

Natural Gas for almost all applications is supplies at about 1/4 to 1/3 psi (7 to 10 IW (Inches water)). Some areas you can get service at 2psi. Even with a Natural Gas booster (G-TECH) it will not be possible because an affordable booster will only produce 15-30psi. At this point it would be cheaper to buy a OXY/FUEL torch than try to run a HH on a booster because you will spend around $1000 for booster plus installation....

Closest thing to a HH on natural gas would probably be a Bunsen burner found in chemistry labs or a torch out of Japan that uses NG and or low pressure propane, and pressurized air (small compressor-or blower) but runs something like $580 + shipping ....

http://www.satakeglassusa.com/
http://www.jplampwork.com/a3torch.htm

Dale

[lunamoonshadow]

Dale--am I reading that post right? Propane is *hotter* than MAPP?
(wondering if that's part of the "dirt" issue people have when they switch--perhaps they don't adjust for the heat difference?)

[Dale M.]

Yes.... In a sense..... The heat in the flame in is a different place .... IT depends where the combustion process is completed.... There is more heat in propane flame but it is further out in flame than where MAPP gas is at its hottest because MAPP gas burns faster the heat is closer to torch tip...

The big plus to MAPP is that it seems to burn cleaner than propane...

Dale

[lunamoonshadow]

I'm just thinking of the folks who switch over from MAPP to propane & then have huge issues about the extreme dirtiness of the propane--perhaps it's due to the heat difference (and as you said the combustion difference) & the fact that they aren't adjusting to/for that difference & are writing the whole thing off unnecessarily.
I know I can work my hothead just fine with propane (as can several other folks I know) with any color--if I adjust the flame properly & keep the bead in the right place--but of course if I put the bead in the *wrong* place, or turn the flame up too high, or whatever, I can fry the heck out of the glass too! I'm just wondering if some of the folks making the switch over are expecting the two fuels to perform *exactly* the same & that's where they're getting "dirty" from--not from actual "dirt", but from not making the necessary adjustments. (Thinking I might not think to experiment with adjusting the torch if my first batch of beads turned out dirty--I might just blame it on the fuel if people told me to, unless I "knew better", you know?)

[Dale M.]

Here is where I am coming from or should I say, basing my statements on...

http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/show...34&postcount=5

Maybe bhhco (Padre)will reprint it here........

Dale

[lunamoonshadow]

Cool. (or hot ) Thanks--That answers some of what I've been thinking/wondering for the last several months.
I'm happy with my propane (bbq tank) & your explanation & that link make a lot of sense. Just comes down to PPP pretty much when you switch fuels to find the new/right spot for what you're working with--the same as if you switch torches then--because the different fuel is going to be just that--*different*.

[AnnieQ]

I just bought a HH for convenience. I have a mini cc that I love but I have to hook up and unhook every time I torch and where the tank is, it's getting more and more physically difficult to deal with. So I'm gonna try a hot head with just the mapp tank connected to it.

I know it can't be that hard but is there a thread or instructions somwhere along with safety stuff on how to set this hothead up?

How many hours do the mapp tanks get? Is there only one size tank? I'm trying to eliminate going outside or even dealing with propane. Whether I can or not I'll see. I know the propane has to be outside, but is there a bulk gas for the HH that I can keep inside safely?

Any tips on the switch over will be appreciated. How do I support the tank....a clamp or something? Sometimes I only have a short time to torch and by the time I deal with the propane/regulator/roll out the oxycon/hoses blah blah blah...I'm outta the mode....LOL
Until I move to a better place, I'm just gonna try the HH.

So any help would be greatly appreciated, especially if I'm missing something.

Thanks
Annie

[Dale M.]

Time on a tank will vary.....

Tanks come in several sized, #1 being most common but not considered "bulk".... Smallest sizes bulk MAPP tank my local distributor handles is a 11 lb. tank. That is about 2 gallons. Its possible that there is larger sizes but I have never researches the issue.

Keep in mind you will have same hose/tank issues with bulk MAPP and you are having with oxy/fuel torch...

Lots of information on fuels and setups here:

http://www.artglassanswers.com/forum...bb36ec71e71499

Dale

[glass_girl]

Ya know, Annie... I'll let Dale answer your questions b/c there's a lot of them, but...

I have a metal surface that goes on your table and holds the 1lb. canister in place for you. Very simple!! I got it when I first started lampworking but only used it for a couple of months. It's stainless steel and clamps the bottle which holds the mapp or propane can. Here's a link to sundance and it's the very first pic at the top of the page.

I also have a 25 ft hose with all the connections for hooking up bulk mapp to the HH, but I'm not sure if you're interested. Otherwise there are clamps you can buy to hook up the HH and screw it to your table - and L clamp and a large C clamp. But I found those to be annoying and liked the ease of using the work surface much better.

I have some other stuff, too. Let me know if you're interested in anything.

[AnnieQ]

Do you have to keep the bulk mapp outside? Do you know what size of the smaller bottles they have? Just that one size like at lowes?

I would be interested in your HH stuff...why don't you pm me or post some prices for me.

Thanks a bunch.

[Dale M.]

The 1 pound size (at Lowes or HD) are "standard" for this type of torch. Any thing else is considered "bulk" and it will depend on what you can find locally at a industrial or welding gas supplier.... As I said the smallest bulk tank available in my area is a 11 pound tank...

YES tank should be kept outside, that means getting longest "bulk supply" hose you can find, usually 12 to 18 feet probably available though camping supply or industrial suppliers.

Also NFPA restricts the number of 1 pound cylinders to 2 that one can store in a residence (attached garage is included in definition of "residence"). Anything larger is forbidden inside.

All the very sepecifics are spelled out in the document found here,

http://www.artglassanswers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7

Dale

[AnnieQ]

Originally Posted by glass_girl

Ya know, Annie... I'll let Dale answer your questions b/c there's a lot of them, but...

I have a metal surface that goes on your table and holds the 1lb. canister in place for you. Very simple!! I got it when I first started lampworking but only used it for a couple of months. It's stainless steel and clamps the bottle which holds the mapp or propane can. Here's a link to sundance and it's the very first pic at the top of the page.

I also have a 25 ft hose with all the connections for hooking up bulk mapp to the HH, but I'm not sure if you're interested. Otherwise there are clamps you can buy to hook up the HH and screw it to your table - and L clamp and a large C clamp. But I found those to be annoying and liked the ease of using the work surface much better.

I have some other stuff, too. Let me know if you're interested in anything.

Yes, I'm interested in whatcha got. I sent a pm, not sure if you got it. PM me with info or feel free to email me. I think it's in my profile, if not lemme know.
Thanks,
Annie

[hawleyclan]

Originally Posted by Dale M.

Here is where I am coming from or should I say, basing my statements on...

http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/show...34&postcount=5

Maybe bhhco (Padre)will reprint it here........

Dale

That is a very helpful, informative post. Thank you for sharing that.

[jaci]

Originally Posted by tabcaver

I'm finding that buying MAPP in bulk in the Cincinnati area has become difficult. One sourse told me it's being phased out and replaced with propylene gas (said it burns hotter). Any thoughts about using propylene gas with a HH.

small learning curve, but i really like it, and was just switched over as well! I also think my lines are more clean with proplyene than they were wit MAPP... give it a few weeks of PPP though... it really taks some getting used to!