Propane in the House? NO! - Page 7

Mr. Smiley · #**181** 2006-05-21, 10:16am

I see peoples point about the propane being inside. I see why it's illegal and I don't condone keeping any tanks inside. I would also like to add a bit of advise for the safety freaks... don't drive a car. Accidents happen. Mechanical failure to your vehicle can cause an accident and you and your loved ones can DIE! My advise is to build a cement cube and get inside. Pay for food to be dropped in a hole daily, ahead of time. Maybe contact the meals on wheels in your area. Don't forget the bottom hole, you'll need some place to poop. My only point to stating this is... life is full of risks. You've stated your case for safety. Your points are valid. What people do from here is really up to them. Life is full of risks and some people are willing to take more than others. You've done your part, just stop short of stuffing it down peoples throats.

jokersdesign · #**182** 2006-05-21, 10:31am

You know what I don't under stand about propane tanks in the house is almost everyone’s house I go to that is not into lampworking has 1 or more 20 lb propane tanks in their garage that is attached to the house.

Also at work in our warehouse the forklifts have 20 lb propane tanks on the back and this warehouse is on the small size no bigger then a 2500 sqft home.

So I would think this is just as big or even bigger safety hazard. Why are the city officials not cracking down on businesses and home owners?

MikeAurelius · #**183** 2006-05-21, 10:35am

Commercial and industrial zonings have different code regulations than residential zonings.

As for the city officials not cracking down on residential codes - call city hall and find out!

lindag · #**184** 2006-05-21, 2:13pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Smiley

I would also like to add a bit of advise for the safety freaks... don't drive a car. Accidents happen.

Yes, accidents do happen, that was my point. Also, it's legal to drive a car.

daisydog7 · #**185** 2006-05-21, 4:23pm

In the past several weeks I have been reading about the dangers of having propane indoors, which I did. I work in my garage. I have moved my propane tank (around 20lb) outdoors. I am on a canal and my garage has flood vents on three sides. I have run the hose through one of these vents. The tank is right outside the garage, and the hose runs probably three feet to my torch. Now, if I understand correctly, if I unhook the hose at the end of each session, I am legal. Do I have to unhook at both ends, or only on the outdoors (the tank)? Will this be excessive wear and tear on the fittings and the hose?
I am presently using a Hothead, but am soon to switch to a Minor torch. I have all equipment except the oxygen generator and should have than within a month or two. Will the system using the Minor torch be a safer system. It will have a flashback arrestor but my present system does not.
This is all so confusing, and when I started making beads 6 months ago I didn't realize an indoor tank was illegal. Yes I have the Cindy Jenkins book.
One person posted hear that having an indoor tank that leaked would present a danger if someone turned a light on. I thought this gas was heavier than air and remained on the ground. If that is true, would a light on the ceiling ignite it? Outside I have an automatic light about 10 feet in the air, so is that a similar situation? Thanks for info, Pam

Mr. Smiley · #**186** 2006-05-21, 4:56pm

I don't think you have to unhook it to be legal... just turn it off at the tank. If I'm wrong about this, I'll be corrected shortly.

Mr. Smiley · #**187** 2006-05-21, 4:57pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by lindag

Yes, accidents do happen, that was my point. Also, it's legal to drive a car.

If I only did what was legal, I'd not be having nearly as much fun!

jokersdesign · #**188** 2006-05-21, 5:07pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeAurelius

Commercial and industrial zonings have different code regulations than residential zonings.

As for the city officials not cracking down on residential codes - call city hall and find out!

Ok I understand Commercial and industrial zonings have different code regulations than residential zonings. But the safety issue is the same. If a forklift with a 20 lbs propane tank leaks it will explode and there will be people dead.

So it doesn’t make sense how just because it is a Commercial zone it is acceptable to have propane tanks inside when the danger is the same.

In fact the forklifts with propane tanks at work are stored in the warehouse over night. I would think that at least they would disconnect the propane tanks from the fork lifts and store then outside the warehouse.

Mike I did call the city where I live and I was told that I CAN have a 100 lbs propane tank inside my garage at all times connected to a garage heater as long as I have my garage vented. I was shocked that they did not say I would have to store the tank outside the house 10 ft away from any solid structure and have a pipe plumed into the garage connected to the heater.

So should I be concerned about my neighbor across the street from me that stores his BBQ gill inside his garage with a 20 lbs propane tank and when he grills he grills right in the middle of his garage instead of outside his garage?

would GOD think I'm not a good neighbor if I called the city officials.

Dale M. · #**189** 2006-05-21, 8:16pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by daisydog7

One person posted hear that having an indoor tank that leaked would present a danger if someone turned a light on. I thought this gas was heavier than air and remained on the ground. If that is true, would a light on the ceiling ignite it? Outside I have an automatic light about 10 feet in the air, so is that a similar situation? Thanks for info, Pam

Actually its not the light fixture at ceiling.... Its the light switch on wall that is more likely to arc, and its only about 36-40 inches off floor. Alot closer to gas accumulation near floor... Then there is the pilot light on gas water heater..

Dale

Juln · #**190** 2006-05-21, 10:43pm

Quote:

if there is an "accident", insurance adjusters are going to be looking at internet websites like this, and they are going to see that those of us who know, have been giving the same advice over and over and over and over and over and over (ad infinitum)...

Okay, I can't help but question that. Why the hell would insurance adjusters care about what advice is being given on lampworking sites? It wouldn't make a damn bit of difference to the insurance adjusters or actuaries. The suggestion seems bizarre to me.

MikeAurelius · #**191** 2006-05-22, 4:53am

Brent - the hose would have have to be completely disconnected. Running a soft wall rubber hose through a vent opening is considered a temporary installation, and by the rules, has to be disconnected after every use. Simply turning off the valve is not enough.

Juln - it proves intent. If advise has been given AND IGNORED there is intent to defraud the insurance company. Insurance companies will look for any reason not to pay out on a claim.

ChaoticGlass · #**192** 2006-05-22, 6:22am

Mike,
Insurance companies here in So. FL are dropping people because they don't want to pay to fix a roof, replace windows, rebuild walls, etc... They aren't going to play FBI and trace my IP address for the cache history. Perhaps my lax attitude stems from the fact that when June 1st rolls around people buy extra propane tanks for their grills, and more gas cans for their generators and where do the majority of people store it? In their garages. When they issue the statement that we are going to get hit, we all go to fill up those gas cans, not just 5 or 10 gallons, but a minimum of 30 gallons is average here if not conservative. EMS here tells us to chain our tanks (gas and propane) in an area that is sheltered from wind. For many, that's the garage or even in the house. I can't tell you how many houses burn down because people don't know how to fuel a generator, when they get power back up flames shoot out of them. Seriously, I'm more afraid of the guy across the street with a 60 gallon gas tank in his garage, that will be filled soon to run his gen. I'm not able to install the tank outside, so it's just going to come down to preparation. I run a fan on the ground constantly and the door stays open so the gas can disperse if I do pick up a leaky tank. I disconnected the automatic opener and I have a battery powered shop lamp. I know you're not going to condone this, and I'm not asking you to. I still feel like my set-up is twice as safe as the shop I worked in before, and that's all I have to say.

MikeAurelius · #**193** 2006-05-22, 6:57am

Running a fan on the floor where propane could pool is about the worst thing you can do - if propane should leak, the electrical fan will most likely ignite the propane. All it takes is a small spark...

If you are going to do this, get the fan off the floor and at least 3 feet above the floor blowing down and out.

ChaoticGlass · #**194** 2006-05-22, 7:10am

Ok, I'll do that. I was concerned with the fan not being low enough, so I put it on the floor. I also started looking for battery powered fans (for in my house too) does anyone know where I can find some?

jokersdesign · #**195** 2006-05-23, 1:46pm

why don't you just use a 2 lb propane tank.

smutboy420 · #**196** 2006-06-06, 5:10am

Quote:

So how come the jewelry store can have a big canister of propane sitting right there next to the jewelers bench.

and

Quote:

at work in our warehouse the forklifts have 20 lb propane tanks on the back

I'm going to problely get flamed for this.
But the reason you can have a tank on a fork lift inside or by a jewelers bench. or By your glass blowing bench.
Is because its pefectly legal in most places to USE propane indoors.
Every one is getting storage and use confused.
You are not allowed to STORE it inside. But you are allowed to USE propane inside in most places that I am aware of.

They don't make you run a big hose from your fork lift to the outside. But un used tankes are supposed to be stored outside in most places.
the reasone they don't have to be unhooked at night from a fork lift or from your torch or a jewelers torch. Is because its considered in use when its hooked up even if its not running.

MikeAurelius · #**197** 2006-06-06, 6:16am

Uh, no. Under the NPFA rules, you can have a maximum of 2 (two) one-pound cannisters in use or in storage in a residence. A 20# bbq tank exceeds the NFPA rules by a considerable amount for a residence.

The quotes above are all commercial/industrial use, and those rules are very different from residential rules. A lot of jewelers use acetylene, which is a far different gas (behavior-wise) from propane (although some jewelers do use propane).

Dale M. · #**198** 2006-06-06, 7:35am

To further expand on what Mike said...."Use" and "storage" are synonymous terms as to where propane tanks may be paced in residence... Propane powered forklifts are usually in rather open ventilated warehouse situations, and propane tanks in jewelry stores are usually classified under a business setting... All three situations, residence, warehouse and business are covered by a different set of NFPA rules as to how propane can be stored & used...

Dale

Juliac · #**199** 2006-06-07, 1:29pm

Thank you for this post everyone! I have moved my tank outsode with a temporary hose running through a window. I know you referenced a rubbermaid tank holder and I saw the one on it's side. Is there one rubbermaid makes or one someone makes to keep it contained and prying minds out if it?

MikeAurelius · #**200** 2006-06-07, 3:53pm

As long as the lid closes, it really doesn't matter which particular model, or even manufacturer.

ChaoticGlass · #**201** 2006-06-07, 6:29pm

Julia,
Put a BIOHAZARD sticker on the outside and noone will want anything to do with it. I get mine from home depot, the one I go to has a ton of different sizes and I even have one for my rolls of wrapping paper.

Juliac · #**202** 2006-06-10, 7:57pm

Thanks guys, will do!

MikeAurelius · #**203** 2006-06-11, 6:02am

NO Do NOT put a BIOHAZARD sticker on it - you will have neighbors and the city on your butt. DO put a PROPANE sticker on it.

danelady · #**204** 2006-06-11, 5:24pm

He isn't TRYING to make you feel ignorant Courtney, he is TRYING to make you LISTEN, as you are obviously unwilling to do, and possible save your life DESPITE yourself (you and or anyone else who insists on keeping propane tanks inside).The life you take may be someone WE love!

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChaoticGlass

I probably shouldn't have even posted in the first place. To me it seems like the only examples of explosions that have been given are situations where the tanks are being misused. It's not possible for me to drill freaking holes in the walls and pipe the gas in, the community doesn't allow tanks to be stored outside. Property insurance won't even pay for hurricane damages, so there is no argument. MIKE: YOU DONT NEED TO USE CAPS, I'M PERFECTLY CAPABLE OF READING LOWERCASE LETTERS. When I blow my neighborhood up you'll be the first person to know. Why do you feel the need to try and make people feel ignorant for asking a question?

danelady · #**205** 2006-06-11, 5:48pm

Julia, Just buy a cheap Rubbermaid type Box that the propane tank will fit into. Cut a hole in the Bottom for the hose, then stand it up on one of the small ends, put your tank in, run the hose in, then place the lid on! Vpila!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Juliac

Thank you for this post everyone! I have moved my tank outsode with a temporary hose running through a window. I know you referenced a rubbermaid tank holder and I saw the one on it's side. Is there one rubbermaid makes or one someone makes to keep it contained and prying minds out if it?

nlinaz · #**206** 2006-06-17, 4:47pm

I have a question about storing the propane tank outside in container. I will be putting the tank on my patio outside my sliding glass doors with the hose running through a doggy door. I am in Arizona and the afternoon sun will be on the patio, temps up to 115+ in the sun. Is it ok to keep in sun?? I have nosey neighbors that see everything, and no shed to store in. Thanks
Nancy

MikeAurelius · #**207** 2006-06-17, 5:47pm

Not a problem, however, if you keep it in a rubbermaid or equivalent container, it will be shaded and out of the sun.

One thing that's fairly important is to keep as much of the T grade house OUT of direct sun as possible - sunlight will breakdown the hose over time - several years, but you should still keep the exposure to a minimum.

nlinaz · #**208** 2006-06-17, 6:55pm

I'll probably get a Rubbermaid trash can, 33 gallon size. Is just a hole for the hose enough or should I make many? Also should the lid be on tight or loose?
I spoke to 2 bbq stores today, one said it was ok to store tank in garage the other said no way! And I'm gonna get an outdoor shade to block my side neighbors. Thanks everyone and esp. you Mike!

MikeAurelius · #**209** 2006-06-18, 5:11am

Not in the garage, if it is attached to the house.

Remember that anytime you put propane into an enclosed container, trash can or deck box or whatever: drill holes in the bottom in case of a leak - the propane will seep out and not build up. You can use screen to keep mice and insects out. Drill a hole in the side or route the hose out the top, but make sure the hose cannot be squeezed or abraided.

Also, if it isn't obvious that there is a propane tank inside the enclosure, NFPA code states that there has to be a sign on the container indicating that there is propane inside. This will alert the fire department to take the necessary steps in case of a fire.

I'd put the lid on tight, just to ensure it isn't blown away in windy conditions. If there are holes in the bottom and side, the lid can be tight without a problem.

tiggybubba · #**210** 2006-07-21, 1:33pm

Ok I have now completely rethought my potential set up (I say potential as I dont have my torch yet). My plan was to do this outdoors in the open carport until winter and then take the tank indoors when I wanted to use it in the second story spare room. Ok I get it...not a good idea!@

My question? Can I run my torch in that bedroom with the tank outside on the ground and run a hose (it would be about 10-15') from that tank up to the second floor? After each session turning off the gas, draining the lines and putting it all away? I cannot drill holes in my garage (no room in there anyways!) as the strata will not let me.

Or barring that, If I bundle up real well, can I continue to torch outside when its cold? I do not have a kiln yet but hope to before the end of the year. I was going to do the crockpot and vermiculite method and batch anneal. Will the beads crack in the cold air?

I would rather not do it outside year round. It can get pretty nasty in the winter here. Very windy (for good ventilation) but very wet and miserable.

I look forward to your suggestions.

Thanks again.
Leslie F