do u batch anneal ?

[angie]

How many of you batch anneal?
or do you anneal as you go...straight in the kiln?

[lunamoonshadow]

you *might* get more responses if the poll was "private" & not "public"--I'm betting some people who batch anneal don't want their peers to know it...
(My beads are batched by Nikki--she's a sweetie & does them for me whenever I send them to her! I'm not worried about people thinking "less" of me for not having my own kiln yet ) Some people are very "down" on those who "batch" their beads though...
~luna

[dogmaw]

Where is the option for "I do either one depending on the glass I'm using and how big the beads are"?

[Mopnglo]

I have to batch anneal as my kiln is this one:


I've tried to put it straight into the kiln after making a bead, but it's not so easy to do. So I'll be a batch annealer until I can afford a smaller kiln.

[blong2001]

I batch anneal because I am such a newbie and do not have a good home for my kiln yet. Until I have a good set up-then I will put them directly in the kiln.
Beth

[swanseafarm]

Annealing 101

Batch annealing is not inferior to garage annealing.

Not annealing is inferior to annealing.
Not annealing correctly is inferior to annealing correctly.

The hyperbole and myths that garage annealing is superior to batch annealing is a great marketing tool for those selling those types of kilns. The physics and science of annealing shows that batch annealing correctly is no different than garage annealing correctly.

Remember, you aren't annealing huge glass objects. Glass beads were not even annealed at all until the last 50 years or so. All those gorgeous old trade beads from over 100 years ago....not annealed.

[bclogan]

I used to put my beads into a fiber blanket to cool, and then batch anneal at a later time. That was before I had an annealer. Now I put them directly in to the kiln.

When I batch annealed I lost at least 5-10% of my beads to thermal stress. Now that I anneal right away, I might lose one or two, but that's pretty rare and usually the result of looking at it for too long before I pop it into the kiln.

[Hayley]

I couldn't vote since I do both. Batch annealing for beads I make weekday evenings and garage annealing on the weekends. I only make large and sculptural beads during the weekends while garage annealing.

[pam]

Originally Posted by swanseafarm

Annealing 101

Batch annealing is not inferior to garage annealing.

Not annealing is inferior to annealing.
Not annealing correctly is inferior to annealing correctly.

The hyperbole and myths that garage annealing is superior to batch annealing is a great marketing tool for those selling those types of kilns. The physics and science of annealing shows that batch annealing correctly is no different than garage annealing correctly.

Remember, you aren't annealing huge glass objects. Glass beads were not even annealed at all until the last 50 years or so. All those gorgeous old trade beads from over 100 years ago....not annealed.

I'm sorry, Bonnie, but I have to disagree with your reply. Garage annealing is superior to batch annealing. In batch annealing one makes a bead, then cools it to room temperature without annealing. During that cooling process stress is held within the bead. Some beads will crack and break due to that stress. Some beads will develop cracks inside that you cannot see and some will develop no cracks, inside or out. While they are sitting on your table after having cooled that stress can result in a cracked bead, so the longer it sits on your table the more likely the stress will move from the inside to the outside. When you batch anneal those beads, the stress is relieved, but any inherent weakness inside the bead from cracks that have not reached the surface are still there.

When you garage anneal, the bead is kept at a temperature in the kiln where the stress built into the bead will not result in a crack. The molecules inside the bead are still moving. The temperature falls slowly enough so that the stresses are relieved, the molecules slow down and finally come to rest in a comfortable position. Thus, if done correctly, no inside cracks and no outside cracks. No stress and no weaknesses.

Beads were not annealed in the long-ago past. What they did was to put the beads either into a banked fire or put them in a very warm spot over the fire. No, it wasn't annealing, but most of their beads were also extremely small and also were worked very quickly and with a minimum of decoration. The chemical composition of the glass they used was more simplistic. The glass they worked with was very different from what we work with today. The stresses we place on our glass today by working for sometimes hours in a flame, heating and cooling, heating and cooling, adding glass with a different chemical composition, working it over and over again, all add to the stresses we build up within the glass. Sure, make a simple blue spacer bead and it probably won't crack, but start adding dots, swirls, stringer, gold leaf, enamels, shaping it by forcing the glass into an unnatural shape and you are adding stress on top of stress on top of stress.

However, I will agree with you in the sense that batch annealing a perfectly good bead with no weaknesses is just as good as garage annealing that same bead. The problem becomes, how do you know there are no weaknesses.

[NLC Beads]

I batch annealed until I got my kiln... Now I kiln anneal as I go...

[navarre]

Sorry Pam but I have to disagree with your disagreement

The issues you mention that can occur - can - will and do also occur - for people who garage - forums online are littered with posts of garaged beads that "cracked in the kiln" etc etc.

Bonnie was correct in that in the science of annealing there is no difference in the two methods - properly annealed is properly annealed no matter how it got there.

Batch annealing "can" carry a risk that the internal stress "may" be too much for some individual bead and you will lose one here and there.

But garaging also carries risks (a too hot bead touching another one or the kiln floor or furniture etc.

Neither potential issue makes one way superior to the other - its a risk to deal with and manage as needed.

Internal stresses through prolonged working\pressing\repeated cooling\heating cycles etc can all be managed with appropriate process during the production phase of making the bead - you really can take glass a lot further then you first might think - when worked appropriately and with good feeling for the glass (not sure how to word that better)

Either process (garage or batching) is as good as each other - in terms of the outcome of having an object that is stress relieved.

[Anne Ricketts]

They could also crack if you admire them too long before you put them in the kiln, ask me how I know! I used to batch anneal when I first started because I had to have the kiln in another room but now I put them straight into the kiln because it is right next to me.

[FLT]

I used to batch anneal until I got my chili pepper kiln up and running. Now I anneal as I go. I batch annealed for about 5 or 6 years before I finally switched over to the chili pepper and am not at all ashamed to say so.

[pam]

Navarre, I agree with you to a certain extent. My dispute is that putting a flawed bead in a kiln for annealing will result in a flawed bead. Annealing does not heal flaws. Once a bead is properly annealed, it is annealed, whether batch annealed or garage annealed. However, once a bead is flawed, it is flawed whether batch annealed or garage annealed.

Yes, people lose beads all the time when garage annealing, but that is "user error", meaning, as Anne said, admiring the bead too long before placing it in the kiln, allowing the bead to cool too much while working it (that ping sound), using slightly incompatible glasses.

I think eveyone will agree that there is much more likelihood of annealing a flawed bead when you are batch annealing, because the glass has been cooled without the benefit of being properly annealed. You cannot see, unless the bead is transparent, what has happened beneath the surface of the bead. The bead may have a crack beneath the surface that you will never see, and thus that flaw will weaken the basic structure of the bead. Even though the bead is annealed the flaw remains and the weakness remains, even though the stresses are relieved.

Don't get me wrong, when buying a bead, I only care that it has been annealed, not how. But to make a statement that batch annealing is as good as garage annealing is not precisely correct.

I think we can all agree that allowing a bead to cool without the benefit of annealing allows all the built up stress to remain in the bead. What that stress does inside the bead is unknown, unless the bead falls apart, or unless the bead is transparent and we can actually see. A crack could be starting that will increase, due to the stress. The bead could be just getting ready to break completely in half in another minute, another hour, another day. Yes, you can anneal that bead and stop the stress, but if that crack extends to, say, within a milimeter of the surface of the bead, that bead will be weakened. Outside stress, such as dropping the bead on a hard surface, extreme heat or cold, can cause that crack to extend through the surface of the bead.

[pam]

FLT, there is no shame in batch annealing, none whatsoever. It is a perfectly rational way to anneal beads, but, to my way of thinking, garage annealing is a better way of annealing. My dispute was to the remark, "The hyperbole and myths that garage annealing is superior to batch annealing is a great marketing tool for those selling those types of kilns." There are lots of beads that will not survive without garage annealing, but will survive with it. So, let's see, to me that makes garage annealing superior.

[Moth]

I garage as I go.

A batch annealed bead is just as annealed as a garaged bead.

The risk comes in getting the batch annealed bead to survive through the initial cooling in the fiber blanker or vermiculite without gaining so much stress that it is weak. Or thermal shocking and cracking outright.

If you can get a bead down to room temperature safely with the least amount of stress, and then batch anneal it...it is just as annealed as a garaged bead.

I agree with Pam's second post.

Annealing does not fix flaws, it does not heal cracks.

I believe that most cracking that goes on in garaged beads is user error- people putting them into the kiln too hot or too cold or pushing their luck with furnace glass frits combined with 104 coe glass, or using glass that is supposed to be compatible, but isn't.

I think that if a person is making relatively small beads, rounds or of uniform shape that batch annealing is a viable endeavor.

However, some of my beads take over an hour to make, some of them are very sculpted with sticky outy parts and such and I don't believe they would survive the cool down in a fiber blanket or vermiculite to get to the annealing stage to begin with.

So, basically garaging is better because it is safer and more controlled. But batch annealing is still annealing.

~~Mary

[swanseafarm]

Originally Posted by pam

I'm sorry, Bonnie, but I have to disagree with your reply. Garage annealing is superior to batch annealing. In batch annealing one makes a bead, then cools it to room temperature without annealing. During that cooling process stress is held within the bead. Some beads will crack and break due to that stress. Some beads will develop cracks inside that you cannot see and some will develop no cracks, inside or out. While they are sitting on your table after having cooled that stress can result in a cracked bead, so the longer it sits on your table the more likely the stress will move from the inside to the outside. When you batch anneal those beads, the stress is relieved, but any inherent weakness inside the bead from cracks that have not reached the surface are still there.

When you garage anneal, the bead is kept at a temperature in the kiln where the stress built into the bead will not result in a crack. The molecules inside the bead are still moving. The temperature falls slowly enough so that the stresses are relieved, the molecules slow down and finally come to rest in a comfortable position. Thus, if done correctly, no inside cracks and no outside cracks. No stress and no weaknesses.

Beads were not annealed in the long-ago past. What they did was to put the beads either into a banked fire or put them in a very warm spot over the fire. No, it wasn't annealing, but most of their beads were also extremely small and also were worked very quickly and with a minimum of decoration. The chemical composition of the glass they used was more simplistic. The glass they worked with was very different from what we work with today. The stresses we place on our glass today by working for sometimes hours in a flame, heating and cooling, heating and cooling, adding glass with a different chemical composition, working it over and over again, all add to the stresses we build up within the glass. Sure, make a simple blue spacer bead and it probably won't crack, but start adding dots, swirls, stringer, gold leaf, enamels, shaping it by forcing the glass into an unnatural shape and you are adding stress on top of stress on top of stress.

However, I will agree with you in the sense that batch annealing a perfectly good bead with no weaknesses is just as good as garage annealing that same bead. The problem becomes, how do you know there are no weaknesses.

I'm going to respectfully disagree.
The science and physics of annealing don't change regardless if you batch or garage. An individual's techique and timing has more to do with the issues you are refering to. If anyone lets a bead cool too quickly before they put it in a fiber blanket or park it in a kiln, the same propensity to stress is the outcome.

Claiming batch annealed beads are inferior to garage annealed beads is contrary to the scientific and physical facts and why experts debunk the notion as an irresponsible myth.

[pam]

Bonnie, again, annealing is annealing. Once something is annealed it is annealed. I'm not arguing with that.

And I never said that all batch annealed beads are inferior, only that cooling without benefit of annealing may result in cracks in beads caused by stress. We all know that. Subsequent annealing of a cracked bead removes the stress, but does not eliminate the crack.

I would like to see your scientific and physical facts that state that every bead cooled to room temperature and subsequently annealed is as strong as every bead garage annealed. As far as I am aware there is no scientific data specifically with regard to beads, only empirical data which confirms that cooling a bead without annealing produces stress in beads which can result in cracking.

I am not saying that your beads are inferior because they are batch annealed, only that garage annealing is a superior process to batch annealing.

[chrissij]

I often make four or five beads on one mandrel so garage annealing would likely "shock my beads to pieces". For beads the size of mine, I think garage annealing would be a tremendous waste of electricity. I've been eyeing the annealer that sits atop the Evenheat kiln for if and when I ever get around to making a bead larger than 15 mm or so...

[beadworkstudio]

Originally Posted by swanseafarm

Claiming batch annealed beads are inferior to garage annealed beads is contrary to the scientific and physical facts and why experts debunk the notion as an irresponsible myth.

Where do we find reports of lab tests for beads? I'd like to read what the experts say. I've read expert advice about kilnforming and blowing, but haven't seen anything about beads.

[AnnDK]

Yes I batch anneal. I did a batch today and do you want to know why???? I JUST got my kiln today so I had to anneal ALL the beads I've made.

They couldn't even be in the kiln all at once, so tomorrow I'll do another batch.
Did I mention I got a kiln today????

Ann

[Kalera]

If you heat a piece of glass up to annealing temperature, what happens is that the molecules begin moving again... just enough to relieve stresses incurred in rapid cooling. If there are no internal cracks, a bead which is blanket-cooled and then properly batch annealed will be internally identical to a bead that is garaged and annealed.

[Lisi]

I have to agree with Pam 100%. To me, even the small ones like I make cool too quickly and can crack and you won't even see it because it's on the inside.

I can understand batch annealing if you are not selling your beads, esp. new people who have to borrow the use of a kiln. But if you are selling them, they should be put straight into the kiln after leaving the flame. Too risky if you don't. I've been selling beads for 4 1/2 years and have not had any reports of mine ever breaking. I always worried about that because sometimes I use 91-94 COE frits with Moretti, and even some of Moretti's line are incompatable with each other! (knock on wood...)

Originally Posted by pam

I'm sorry, Bonnie, but I have to disagree with your reply. Garage annealing is superior to batch annealing. In batch annealing one makes a bead, then cools it to room temperature without annealing. During that cooling process stress is held within the bead. Some beads will crack and break due to that stress. Some beads will develop cracks inside that you cannot see and some will develop no cracks, inside or out. While they are sitting on your table after having cooled that stress can result in a cracked bead, so the longer it sits on your table the more likely the stress will move from the inside to the outside. When you batch anneal those beads, the stress is relieved, but any inherent weakness inside the bead from cracks that have not reached the surface are still there.

When you garage anneal, the bead is kept at a temperature in the kiln where the stress built into the bead will not result in a crack. The molecules inside the bead are still moving. The temperature falls slowly enough so that the stresses are relieved, the molecules slow down and finally come to rest in a comfortable position. Thus, if done correctly, no inside cracks and no outside cracks. No stress and no weaknesses.

Beads were not annealed in the long-ago past. What they did was to put the beads either into a banked fire or put them in a very warm spot over the fire. No, it wasn't annealing, but most of their beads were also extremely small and also were worked very quickly and with a minimum of decoration. The chemical composition of the glass they used was more simplistic. The glass they worked with was very different from what we work with today. The stresses we place on our glass today by working for sometimes hours in a flame, heating and cooling, heating and cooling, adding glass with a different chemical composition, working it over and over again, all add to the stresses we build up within the glass. Sure, make a simple blue spacer bead and it probably won't crack, but start adding dots, swirls, stringer, gold leaf, enamels, shaping it by forcing the glass into an unnatural shape and you are adding stress on top of stress on top of stress.

However, I will agree with you in the sense that batch annealing a perfectly good bead with no weaknesses is just as good as garage annealing that same bead. The problem becomes, how do you know there are no weaknesses.

[lldesigns]

I also have done both depending on the circumstances. Most are put straight into a kiln but I do batch anneal occasionally. I haven't had a problem with any of the beads and in fact I purposely batch anneal some of the beads when I'm trying to get a particular effect. I've noticed that my DSP beads respond really well to batch annealing. I think it's because the other kiln I use has a specific atmosphere. I use an oxidizing flame when I work them and get some nice color but when they come out the kiln they have gorgeous rainbow colors!

[cherylsart]

"I can understand batch annealing if you are not selling your beads, esp. new people who have to borrow the use of a kiln. But if you are selling them, they should be put straight into the kiln after leaving the flame. Too risky if you don't. I've been selling beads for 4 1/2 years and have not had any reports of mine ever breaking."

I find this statement offensive. It sounds like you're saying that unless you can afford a kiln to garage your beads in that you have no business selling them. I know that people sell beads that have been batched annealed regularly and have for quite some time, myself included. So, our beads aren't good enough to be sold because of the way we anneal them? I can see why people who batch anneal may be afraid to admit it.

Cheryl

[pokieokie]

I have been batch annealing for 3 1/2 years and rarely do I have a bead break. I also have a kiln that I use when I have enough beads to warrant it's use. Electric circuitry and logistics prevent me from having my kiln close to my torch, so I put them in a bead blanket that is surrounded in heavy duty aluminum foil, that is then put inside a small wooden box with a lid. I dare them to cool too quickly.

Pam in OKC

[botree]

I ordered ceramic bricks and cut them (bandsaw) to size to fit in the door of the kiln leaving an opening about three inches high and ten inches long. Placed a rack to hold the mandrels just inside and can place the beads on the rack and close the door. If you want you can keep the door open and not lose too much heat; that works as well. no need to cement the bricks, just be careful.

[botree]

Also, I have a cast iron Dutch oven with lid filled with vermiculite sitting on a
single burner ($6 from Lowes) electric cooking unit. This gets plenty hot and works for snall batches.

[PixieFireBeads]

I thought that maybe batch annealing might be a way to save electricity, just like I thought that garaging at a lower temp might save electricity. (I'm turning blonde!)

Anyway, I still garage my beads and I let the controller start going through it's ramp down cycle when I think I'm finished. If I decide to bead again later I just turn the kiln back on, regardless of where it is in the ramp down cycle. The beads heat back up and I go back on my merry way. I don't know if it's bad to let the temperatures of the glass decrease then increase again, but I haven't had any breakage and by my logic I'm saving some electricity.

[lunamoonshadow]

Originally Posted by Kalera

If you heat a piece of glass up to annealing temperature, what happens is that the molecules begin moving again... just enough to relieve stresses incurred in rapid cooling. If there are no internal cracks, a bead which is blanket-cooled and then properly batch annealed will be internally identical to a bead that is garaged and annealed.

Kalera, have I mentioned today that I you?
(facts & reason...we can always count on you & John & Tink for facts & reason!)