Questions - natural gas booster related

LyndaJ · #1 2008-12-07, 12:40pm

Does anyone who has a natural gas booster (or a dedicated line) know what pressure you get?

I'm dreaming of a bigger torch, and I was curious to see how pressure I can get off natural gas so that I could see what torches would run that way.

I really like the convenience, clean burning, and safety of natural gas, so propane's not an option.

Thank-you, Lynda

Janetlee · #2 2008-12-07, 1:12pm

I have natural gas. I don't know exactly off the top of my head the gas pressure. But when my plumber put it in , he said I could put any larger torch on it with out needing a booster. I have a Mini CC and have no problems. I also have my furnance in studio, on this line.This line is also the same line going into the house. My house is natural gas for cooking ( professional gas Range ), heating , So I have plenty of pressure to do all of that.
Love the natural gas, I would never use propane again.
Hope this helps.
Janet

piedradesigns · #3 2008-12-07, 1:24pm

Hi Lynda,

I went with natural gas when I set up my shop about a year ago. I have a GTEC TB-15 (they also make a TB-30).

My pressure gauge reads around 25 when I work with my Lynx, with plenty of gas to spare.

Maybe this info from the booklet that came with my booster would be helpful:

"The nominal flow rate for the GTEC Natural Gas TB-15 is 0.25 SCFM (standard cubic feet per minute) at a discharge pressure up to 35 psig (1/4 psi inlet pressure, room temperature operation). The nominal flow rate for the GTEC Natural Gas TB-30 is 0.5 SCFM at a discharge pressure up to 35 psig. All pressure bearing components on the discharge side of the GTEC Natural Gas Torch Booster shall be suitable for pressures up to 50 psig."

I was an English major, but this sounds to me like the TB-30 could handle just about anything short of a blow-torch (which might be fun in its own way).

Do the descriptions of the torches you're interested in include the amount of gas needed to operate properly? With that info in mind, you might take a look at the GTEC website or email them with your questions.

Something else to check on is your gas supply. I'm guessing most households have plenty, but the TB-15 requires at least 15 SCFH (standard cubic feet per hour), and the TB-30 needs at least 30 SCFH.

Hope this helps,
Gretchen
www.piedradesigns.etsy.com

LyndaJ · #4 2008-12-07, 4:18pm

oooh, thank-you.

Tanner Studios · #5 2008-12-07, 7:01pm

Hi Lynda, I'm running a phantom with a Gtec-15. There are two concerns pressure and volume I.e. flow rate. I have a regulator hooked up to the Gtec so I can set what ever I need for the torch ( 10 pounds ) However I can't control the volume the unit can produce.

So the problem is the gtec-15 is to small for my torch. When the torch is raging it will suck the fuel out faster then the unit can produce and shut down. when this happens the Gtec will not start up for a minute or two. Big pain in the , well you know.

It will run the torch pretty well. I just have to watch the gauge and not let it drop below
20 pounds on the gtec gauge.

So I would recommend the Gtec-30 for any two stage torch if you can afford it. Problem is as I member that unit is around $2500.00 as a posed to $1000.00 for the Gtec-15.

Scott

DesertDreamer · #6 2008-12-07, 7:09pm

Hey, Scott, I'm just curious...what are you using for oxygen?

Tanner Studios · #7 2008-12-07, 7:39pm

For soft glass I run the center fire which is a lynx on a OG-15 and the outer fire on a tank. For Boro I run totally off the tank. wish I had a bigger generator.
Scott

LyndaJ · #8 2008-12-08, 6:32am

Thank-you, Scott for the information.

Kim Hsieh · #9 2008-12-08, 8:39am

Ohhh... Could I use some help!

I have a student with a home set-up that he uses natural gas. I run off of propane so I don't know much how this works.

He has a barracuda torch, 2 M-20's, a G-tech 30 booster and an 11lb oxy holding tank. When he lights up his flame is really out of whack. His gas booster is only on 1-2. He keeps his concentrators wide open at 8. It seems like he doesn't have enough oxygen to balance out the flame. He ends up with a large yellow candle. He then has to turn on his outer oxy to balance which is OK but not ideal. The bigger problem is when he needs to fire up the outer ring, the flame is really unbalanced.

Could someone please help me? He's getting really frustrated and I don't know what advice to give. I've tried to research this and see that others have similar problems. Is the only solution for him is to get another concentrator or switch to a Hurricane? Or, does he need the gas booster to begin with? He wants to do boro so he's going to need juice. I've suggested to him that he should unhook his natural gas and just try to use propane with his concentrators to see if he can get a balanced flame. He just got an oxy holding tank but once the tank is filled, it doesn't last but a few minutes and it's out of juice. Very frustrating.

I had suggested that he might want to up his gas pressure from his house but by law, he can't go higher than 1/2PSI so that's not an option.

If someone could please shed light on this, I would greatly appreciate it.

Thanks!
Kim

Tanner Studios · #10 2008-12-08, 12:03pm

Hi Kim. Lets see what we can figure out. First you can rule out house hold pressure. Thats what the booster is for.

Next understand that with N.G. you will not get yellow candles unless the gas is turned up way too far. Even with a strong reducing flame there will not be much color in the candles. At first this will drive you nuts trying to find the neutral fame. I use a rod of Moretti turquoise to test the flame. Melt a small ball on the end of the rod. Turquoise will turn cooper red in a reducing flame.

The first thing I would do is contact the manufacture of the torch and see what settings they recommend for that torch.

Does he have a regulator on the booster? If not he should. The G-tec has a pressure gauge but not regulator. With out a regulator he's probably blowing about thirty five pounds of gas pressure through the torch. which would explain the yellow candles. A good place to start figuring out your settings is to set the gas pressure at half the Oxy pressure. So you will need to determine what the M-20s are producing. I'm not familiar with the M-20 so I can't say for sure but I'd guess some where around 8 pounds on the gas pressure with two M-20s.

Next I'd try losing the holding tank and run straight off the M-20s Until I solved the problem.

Remember these are just a guess at his settings and need to be refined for his environment.

Hope this gets you started on the right path.
Scott

Tanner Studios · #11 2008-12-08, 1:38pm

I just found this http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=112747

Trey is running the same oxy set up but with propane. So I'm betting your friend just needs a regulator on the booster.
Scott

Kim Hsieh · #12 2008-12-09, 6:51am

Scott,

Thanks so much for your help. I believe he does have a regulator on his G-tec and sets it to 15lpm at 1-2PSI. Personally, I was thinking it was overkill but now I'm thinking his oxy isn't strong enough. I also think the holding tank isn't doing anything for him.

If you have anymore thoughts, I welcome them! I'll check out the other thread.

Thanks!
Kim

Trey Cornette · #13 2008-12-10, 8:06pm

I run my Barracuda With 2 M-20's and 4-5 psi on the propane.
I have no idea what it should be on natural gas.

Tanner Studios · #14 2008-12-11, 2:13am

Propane and N.G pressure should be the same. With slit adjustments for environment.

The problem is a very gas rich flame. I'm basing this on the high yellow candle in your early post. So we can rule out the booster for now. So the problem is in the oxy system or the fuel regulator. Hey regulators fail. So will concentrators.

Heres how to check out the system. Start with the Oxy system. Remove the holding tank. Next test the gas regulator. Then you will need to test the M-20's. Understand if one concentrator is putting out more pressure then the other one. One of them could shut down the other. ( cut off the flow because of back pressure.)

Try hooking up one of the M-20's at a time. Then run just the enter fire. It should be more than powerful enough then try the other one. If both work out the same great if not . Look into flow back values.

Please let us know the results I for one am dying to know .
Scott

Lainey the pain · #15 2008-12-11, 2:46pm

I just had a natural gas line put in for my Mega Minor. Household gas pressure is 1/4psi - the highest pressure I was allowed for my torch by code was 2psi. The torch runs great on that with plenty to spare! I'm in Canada so I'm not sure what the code is where you are but I'm assuming they might be similar.

Good luck!

quincyandco · #16 2008-12-11, 3:03pm

I run eight torches with natural gas--I haven't had any problems doing workshops, Trey was here last week with his barracuda. He said it was fine, a little cooler than with propane and he had a hard time to see a reducing flame. BTW, I have 2 mini cc's, 2 minors, 2 bobcats, a betta, and a little dragon 21.

Hayley · #17 2008-12-11, 3:49pm

Lynda - which torch are you thinking of upgrading to? I was at Quincy's studio with my Barracuda and ran it with NG, as Trey just did, with not issues. I don't think Quincy has a booster . . . Quincy, what is your NG pressure? More than 1/4 psi?

There was a Japanese gentleman, Hide, from my Gianni Toso's class who runs a studio in Osaka with natural gas (he is also the publisher for all the Tonbo Dama dvds and books) - he was with me at Quincy's studio. His comments were that GTT torches do not work as well on NG (without a booster) as the Bethlehem torches. I don't know how true that is but just want to pass that on.

Trey Cornette · #18 2008-12-11, 7:40pm

I can say that the straight pressure at Quincys was fine for what we were doing. When I tried opening the torch up to rage level the pressure just was not there to push the flame to its max.
I really prefer propane to NG.

quincyandco · #19 2008-12-11, 7:45pm

I have no idea what my pressure is, just know that I have 3/4 pipe from the meter to my torch connection. Man, if Trey can get his torch to rage better on propane, if I ever get a barracuda, I'll only feed it propane!!LOL

Tanner Studios · #20 2008-12-12, 6:37am

Quincy, Trey did not say he could get his torch to rage better on propane. He said it raged better under pressure.

So lets interject some facts. Thanks to Dale M who posted a link to a wielding gas standards site. We know this, propane burns at 2950 BTU's and Natural Gas burns at 2850 BTU's. So, a pro for propane being hotter but not by much. However Natural gas burns a whole lot cleaner. A pro for N.G..

Fact; any single stage torch will work with house hold Natural gas pressure. Con; that doesn't mean it works well. You need to boost the pressure of the house hold to get your torch to run at top performance. A con for N.G. the price tag for the G-tec- 15 was $950.00 last time I checked. Pro; N.G. is safer. If your like me and can't have propane outside a booster may be your only option. Con; Its harder to determine when the flame is reducing. Pro; the clean burning fuel is worth the time to figure it out.

So as you can see if you look at the truth of things. There are just subtle differences between the two. The main con with natural Gas is the cost of the booster. But for me its a safety and building code thing.

Scott

Dale M. · #21 2008-12-12, 9:26am

Putting flame temperature aside for NG vs. Propane...

Its all about delivery pressure of the fuel (gas) .... Typical NG in most residential and business areas (other than large industrial plants) is 7 to 14 inches water column (27.xxx IW equals 1 psi)... That translated to about 1/4 to /1/2 PSI ....

On the other hand Propane with a adjustable regulator or NG on a booster can have almost any pressure (withing practical limits) you want. From same pressures as commercial/utility NG pressures to what ever the practical limits of pressure from a adjustable regulate (anywhere from 0 psi to 5-10 psi)..

I had loaned to me a Nation 8M with SM 7 tip (probably equal to a nortel minor) and ran it on one oxycon and a PANCAKE style regulator from a RV center and it produced about 1/3 psi 0r about 10 IW and everything worked fine. Upgraded regulator to adjustable one and found out all I could do was actually ruin more glass in somewhat hotter flame and had more trouble getting proper flame mix because oxycon could not supply enough oxygen to take advantage increases amount of fuel....

Bottom line is you have to know a little bit of flame chemistry and flame dynamics to get hottest flame you can use with what may be available to you....

Dale