Oxygen Generator Capabilities

MarkC · #1 2008-07-30, 9:24pm

Hi folks,
I'm new to this forum, and have been torchworking glass for 1 1/2 years. Mostly marbles and just getting into beads. I'm also getting tired of paying my local welding supply guy $80 a month for tank rental and onygen. I know I'm alone here, but was thinking about an oxygen generator, and thought I'd ask you way smarter people then me about it. Here's the deal, I have a Nortel Major burner with a minor on top. I don't use the major much, but might have to some day. I also have a daughter that is taking bead classes and needs to run a second torch (minor burner for now) at the same. Is a generator possible for my/our situation?

Thanks in advance for any help you folks can give me.

Mark

Dale M. · #2 2008-07-31, 8:19am

A generator or a concentrator is probably in your future...

The technology for a concentrator and a generator are the same, the application is what determined whether its terminology is a generator or concentrator.... A concentrator is normally used in medical situations, and generator in industrial situations...

A good "unit" that puts out 5 LPM and a working pressure of 7-9PSI will definitely power a "minor"....

For the major it will take some thing more, at least two 5LPM machines coupled together and probably a third online to really make it go.....

But if your daughter and yourself are really using the smaller torches most of the time, yes oxycons can be the way to go....

Dale

preciousglass · #3 2008-07-31, 9:16am

So grateful you asked this question... I also have a mid range + and have been considering a concentrator/generator. If I have to get 2 then that will be pricey

jjglass · #4 2008-07-31, 9:25am

I started on a concentrator and still use it, but after a year, I can tell you I'm sorry that I invested the money in it. I find that it does not produce a high enough oxygen level to keep from reducing colors (I'm working Boro) and tends to breathe causing flame fluctuations. You can get around some of that by creating a holding tank (there are plans for this on the tips and techniques section of this forum from a while back, do a search) which helps, but in general, I would rather have put the money into tanks or gone staright to a OnSite Pro4 or Pro8. It's pricey, but by the time you get enough concentrators to do a semi-good job you're almost at the price for the Pro 4 with a compressor and air dryer. Anyway, do what works best for you and how/where you work, this is just my .02.

vega · #5 2008-07-31, 1:47pm

i feel ya man. I am burning through 2k tanks in a dayish. I looked at what it would take (con/gen) to power my carlisle... HAAhahahahaha... eff that nonsense. 5 grand just to power it. Mabey when the bankrollers are prepared to buy one for me.

kbinkster · #6 2008-07-31, 2:16pm

How much oxygen you need is dependant on what you do. I do not have the consumption data for the MidRange, but do for the Minor. The Minor needs about 8 LPM for its largest usable flame before distortion. You can run a Midrange on 10 LPM, and get a wide flame, but probably not with long candles.

As for the CC...
I am a distributor for On-Site and can tell you that to run a Carlisle CC to its full capacity, you would need the Pro-8. It puts out 80 CFH (coincidentally what the CC consumes) at 40 psi. I know people who have run this set-up.

I also deal with the big SeQual units. The Quad-100 puts out 100 CFH at 15 psi. I need to test a CC on one of these to see if 15 psi is enough to push the flow through and feed all the jets of that torch. I susect that it may be because there are not too many restrictions in that torch.

There would be enough oxygen left over to run another torch on the Quad-100, but not on the Pro-8.

Sometimes, the overall solution involves getting a more efficient torch.

Ellen Black · #7 2008-08-01, 9:51pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by kbinkster

How much oxygen you need is dependant on what you do. I do not have the consumption data for the MidRange, but do for the Minor. The Minor needs about 8 LPM for its largest usable flame before distortion. You can run a Midrange on 10 LPM, and get a wide flame, but probably not with long candles.

As for the CC...
I am a distributor for On-Site and can tell you that to run a Carlisle CC to its full capacity, you would need the Pro-8. It puts out 80 CFH (coincidentally what the CC consumes) at 40 psi. I know people who have run this set-up.

I also deal with the big SeQual units. The Quad-100 puts out 100 CFH at 15 psi. I need to test a CC on one of these to see if 15 psi is enough to push the flow through and feed all the jets of that torch. I susect that it may be because there are not too many restrictions in that torch.

There would be enough oxygen left over to run another torch on the Quad-100, but not on the Pro-8.

Sometimes, the overall solution involves getting a more efficient torch.

Have you tested the Lucio or the Hellcat?

MarkC · #8 2008-08-02, 6:46pm

Sounds like I'm going to need a college education to make a good decission. Seems like a lot of varibles. I most certianly don't wnt to comprimise my efficiency. Someone mentioned a holding tank with the generator. How's that work out? I appreciate everyones input. It's a bucket load of money, and I want to make a good decission.

Mark

kbinkster · #9 2008-08-02, 7:21pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ellen Black

Have you tested the Lucio or the Hellcat?

Not yet.

kbinkster · #10 2008-08-02, 7:37pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkC

Sounds like I'm going to need a college education to make a good decission. Seems like a lot of varibles. I most certianly don't wnt to comprimise my efficiency. Someone mentioned a holding tank with the generator. How's that work out? I appreciate everyones input. It's a bucket load of money, and I want to make a good decission.

Mark

I know people who run their concentrator(s) into a holding tank and really like it a lot. It depends on how you run your torch as to whether or not this sort of set-up would be worthwhile.

If you run mostly the small part of the torch (the Minor of a Major/Minor or the centerfire of an innerfire/outerfire torch or a smaller range flame on a mid-size torch like a Cheetah ) and then use the top end for short bursts - like for heating large gathers, then using a holding tank would be great.

If you are constantly running the top end of the torch, you will go through the holding tank pretty quickly and would then be left with running on what your concentrator can put out.

It's a balance.

oldschooltofu · #11 2008-08-28, 8:58pm

to answer your question. you should be able to run 2 minors (lynx) off 1 hurricane at the same time, and when your alone you can use the major prob around 80-90%????. it depends on how much heat you need, if not much they you may be good, if you need to crank your major full on, you may need to use the k tank for your major....2 huricanes would be sufficent without any loss of heat, one huricane and you might be reaching, i dont have a major minor so i am going by lynx/phantom flows. gtts are more efficient than a minor so you may need 2 huricanes or 1 huricane and 1 m15 for that set up.

i have 3 huricanes hooked up now, trying to get my torches mostly off liquid for the majority of the time.

i have a mirage, mirage, and phantom. right now the 1 mirage is switchable between liquid and generators using quickconnects. the phantom outer is on the liquid still, the mirage is 100% on generators, but i can probably run all three on the 3 generators if we share our outer some.

i have this set up this way because we mostly use our centerfires, sometimes cracking our outers....we also take breaks so we arnt always on the torch at the same time.
all this week i have been working on 3 huricanes on my mirage and my friend on the other mirage, mostly (95%) using the centerfire, cracking the outer with no problems. when i am on three generators by myself i can run the mirage, melt in solid rod, good O2 flames no reducing. we can both have our outers open but wont get 100% (dont have an actual percentage because we have not encountered this combination yet while working...so we are kind of sharing when we can use the outer full on)

i have run 2 lynx on one huricane at about 90%
i have run 1 lynx on one huricane at 100%
i have run a friends CC on two huricanes at about 80-90% (i would predict 100% with 3)
i have run my mag on 3 huricanes at about 75%, i can melt glass but dont get much out of the outer.
i have run my mirage on 3 huricanes with about 95%, works great.
i have run two huricanes on three lynxes at about 98%
i have run two huricanes on 1 phantom at about 95% works great

i still need to try my mirage on 2 huricanes as im sure some people would like to hear about that. i am also going to try 2 mirages, 1 phantom all on 3 huricanes and see what happens, my prediction is we would all be able to crack our outers and probably one person at a time would be able to run the outers on full blast.

personally i think GTTS are the best for generators because they are the most efficient torch, melting the glass the fastest with the least amount of O2.

i am very happy working on generators, as i have lowered my 02 bill to almost nothing. they use AC power, they are quieter than a large compressor, and i can move them around eaisy if i need to.

since i only run the mag for short bursts and pulling cane 2-4 hours a week i still need some tanked....but if i can get down to 1 k tank a week and get a filling station, ill never have to buy o2 again running three big torches. but my product is small and doest require the outer to be blazzing, just cracked.

all above information is my opinion and not based on numerical facts. i work small items the size of small beads(10-20mm) to 25-32mm solid, my observations are based on my o2 needs and yours may be different depending on what you do, how fast you want to work, and what colors you are working. i am not reping for any generator companies, i chose huricanes because they meet my needs without going to a large compressor/amps.

i hope this helps some people...

Dennis Brady · #12 2008-08-28, 9:14pm

Another possibility would be one of Extreme Oxygen's high pressure filling systems that can fill a 2000 psi tank.

gsteckel · #13 2008-12-25, 4:13pm

A data point for anyone who is interested: I've got 7 concentrators ganged together - 4 "5 lpm" and 3 "10 lpm" ex-medical units. I have had a working oxygen concentration meter (but not at the moment), so I fiddled with the units and determined that none of them gave usable O2 at full output. Backing them off to 4lpm/8lpm each got the percentage up to something usable - over 90%. So I get about 16 + 24 = 40lpm of 90% oxygen. 6 of them are stacked on a Costco chrome wire shelf setup - $90-$95 or so, and a bunch of piping, valves, and fittings from McMaster-Carr.

In order to use this effectively, the path from the concentrators to the burner must be large diameter and free of obstructions. I put some teflon-diaphragm anti-backflow valves (about 1/10 PSI to open), 1/4" tubing from the concentrators to a 3/4" manifold, and 3/4" tubing to my CC burner. I put a pressure gauge on the manifold. The CC burner works fine down to about 2-3 PSI AT THE BURNER. It wants more, but 15 PSI is probably overkill. Note that I run natural gas at 6" WC (the standard home pressure) also with a 1/2" tube all the way to the burner and with full-flow shutoff valves in the gas pipe. Someone running propane would need more oxygen. If I got a lot more O2, like from liquid, I'd consider how to talk the fire marshal into a pump on the nat. gas input.

I still want more O2 - another 20 LPM would mean I could use truly outrageously large flames. As it is I get about 1/2" cones with a moderately oxidizing flame. 3/4" cones would mean a 2" ball of pyrex to play with

I paid a total of about $1800 for 40 LPM, so I figure I made out pretty well. If I could sell the individual concentrators and buy one 40LPM one used, I'd do it to recover the floor space, but until then, I'm happy with this. I have a 2-stage regulator which can accurately deliver 4PSI O2 into the manifold, so if I want to work on something really big, I get a tank and hook it up to the regulator, and as long as I keep the torch below (say) 50%, all the gas comes from the concentrators. If the torch is at full blast, the tank provides about 1/2 of the flow. Using a 1-stage regulator in this configuration won't work - they're too sloppy.

Many people have observed that a "5 lpm" concentrator is only really useful at 4lpm. I have found that using large tubing and fittings makes the low pressure output useful even on torches that supposedly don't work below 15 or 20 PSI. If you do this, buy kevlar and/or fiberglass sleeving to put over the PVC tubing - I haven't been able to find welding hose bigger than 3/8". Of course, if you WANT the flame to rush by your piece at 1000 MPH, then all of this is irrelevant.

Now if someone could convince Carlisle to put 3/8 or 1/2 fittings on their burners, I think I could do better than this....

!ngridh · #14 2008-12-26, 12:09pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkC

Hi folks,
I'm new to this forum, and have been torchworking glass for 1 1/2 years. Mostly marbles and just getting into beads. I'm also getting tired of paying my local welding supply guy $80 a month for tank rental and onygen. I know I'm alone here, but was thinking about an oxygen generator, and thought I'd ask you way smarter people then me about it. Here's the deal, I have a Nortel Major burner with a minor on top. I don't use the major much, but might have to some day. I also have a daughter that is taking bead classes and needs to run a second torch (minor burner for now) at the same. Is a generator possible for my/our situation?

Thanks in advance for any help you folks can give me.

Mark

I can tell you that a very reputable bead maker ...bought the generator so that she and her hubby could torch together...she said she can't work boro while he is working soft glass...

she loved my regalia...said she could easily work boro with it...
it is pricy.... I have one and I love mine...puts out up to 10L oxy...
better than a generator...IMHO

ItsMeRoRo · #15 2008-12-27, 9:38pm

My head is spinning in this thread!! LOL. Great info.

Mary K · #16 2008-12-27, 10:25pm

There are a lot of things to consider when buying a concentrator. I had 2 hurricanes that didn't work. ( they were also very loud and very hot) I had an M-20 that I loved, but wanted more oxy that it was delivering.
These days I am using a regalia, It is so quiet you don't even hear it, and it stays cool, so it doesn't heat up my room. It runs my Lynx pretty well, & I do mostly boro ~ pendants, & beads. I am happy with the regalia, just wish it had more pressure.
If I was asked to reccomend a concentrator I really prefer the Regalia, It is a new machine, not one made of reconditioned parts, it is shipped securely in a professionally made box so it arrives in one piece and works. It is quiet and reliable.While nothing is perfect, it's the closest I've come and I have had 4 concentrators. It does cost more, but I feel it is worth it.
These are some pendants made on a concentrator,they are over and inch and a quarter and alittle over one half inch thick. They are boro.