Newbie bought a kit, torch is cheezy?

WUVIE · #1 2009-04-12, 5:04pm

Hello everyone,

Could you bear one more question from a newbie about torches?

As I have never lampworked before, I thought purchasing an
entire kit in the beginning would be best. Hubby and I assembled
the MAP cannister onto the torch and fired it up. Or at least we tried.

The kit contained a red torch by Fireworks in the Diamond Tech kit.

Instructions mention the flame should be blue, and approximately one
inch long, but we can't get the torch to keep even a three inch flame
without sputtering. The flame is not uniform, but instead has a little
puff of flame at the base which just flutters. Also, the button one is
directed to push for automatic lighting does not work. You have to push
it a number of times before it attempts to light, and yes, we have the
gas turned on, and even up just in case, but no go.

Questions. Without dissing the manufacturer, it would be my first
guess that this is not a quality torch. Any suggestions for a good torch
that won't break the bank for a beginner?

Sigh. All other supplies ready, but can't play with my new toys.

Karen Marie

ewdb · #2 2009-04-12, 5:30pm

try a hothead. great beginner torch, low maintenance, simple to use.

kbinkster · #3 2009-04-12, 5:47pm

Are you trying to make the overall flame an inch long? The overall flame should be longer, it's the little cone inside the flame that should be about an inch or so long.

The Fireworks torch is not the best torch around, but it is still usable. The spark ignitor tends to go on them pretty quickly, though.

WUVIE · #4 2009-04-12, 6:01pm

Oh, thank you! Yes, we were under the impression that the entire flame
should only be an inch long. When I read your post to hubby, he and I
both went "Ohhhh." A light bulb went off, and he said "Let's fire that sucker
up again!"

LOL. Thanks!

kbinkster · #5 2009-04-12, 6:12pm

You're welcome.

You will want to work your glass about an inch or so out from the tip of that blue cone. That should be the sweet spot. If you work it much closer than that you can scorch the glass. If you work further out, it will be too cool and take too long.

Also, make sure that the vent things on that torch are open. If I remember correctly, the FW torch has adjustable air inlets so that you can get a reduction flame by closing them. So, keep them open unless you are trying to reduce.

Oh, and if you get tired of messing with the ignitor, you can take a lit match and hold it up to the bottom rim of the face and slowly turn on the gas. That should light it easily.

WUVIE · #6 2009-04-12, 6:34pm

Oh, my gosh, hubby and I just died laughing, you should have
seen our first attempts at lampworking. We ended up with a big
blue booger, then it broke.

Thanks for the tidbit about the sweet spot. I could tell by watching
hubby that even though I have never touched a torch and glass, the
way he was manhandling the rods surely wasn't the way it was done.

No doubt this is going to take a lot of practice. I think I'll need to
watch a few videos to learn how to hold the glass and rod and such.
Hubby just held the glass in the flame until it was searing hot. I was
trying to casually tell him he wasn't doing it right, but what do I know
either, ha ha!

Dial-up. Sigh.

rg9403 · #7 2009-04-12, 7:10pm

Buy a book.

Dale M. · #8 2009-04-12, 7:34pm

Watch a few YouTube videos and maybe get a book like Cindy Jenkins's, Glass Bead Making....

Also understand molten glass on a mandrel tends to go with gravity, and gravity can be your friend or enemy..... Try to understand what the glass is doing by getting it to hot or letting it get to cool try turning mandrel slowly and observe what is happening (sag) or twirl mandrel fast and see what centrifugal force does to glass. Also hold mandlre at odd angles (note the usual level) and see how glass tends to move up or down mandrel...

Understanding heat and (natural) forces at work here will make it much easier when you really try to make a bead...

Dale

WUVIE · #9 2009-04-12, 7:36pm

Thanks for your help, ewdb, kbinkster and Dale!

theglasszone · #10 2009-04-13, 11:24pm

Wuvie and Mr. Wuvie~~

Welcome to LE and the wonderful world of melting glass!

As much as I know you've already invested in the Fireworks torch and are hopeful to get some practice and develop some beginning lampwork skill without wasting that initial investment, I suspect it won't be long (or maybe you're already there!) until you find this torch annoying and frustrating. I can't recommend enough that you put it away (or give it away!) and get yourself a Hot Head!!! I know you'll be much happier!

Here's a few helpful snaps from a tutorial I have here on LE demonstrating a particular type of glass (being impertinent at the moment), but the photos are intended to show you how the rod is held, where in the flame it is held, and how it looks while winding that initial footprint and beyond on a single fuel torch (Fireworks or Hot Head). Note that I am using a 3/16" mandrel, which may be a little large and heavy for you in your beginning steps, but applying glass to a thinner mandrel is the same in principal. In the photos I'm using a Hot Head Torch with 1 lb. MAPP canister. You can purchase a Hot Head from many vendors here on LE - the cost runs around $40 or you may be able to purchase a used one by posting a "Want To Buy..." ad in Garage Sale area.

This is how your flame should look, and where to hold the mandrel in the flame. Be sure to heat the bead release all the way around the mandrel where you intend to create the bead, and get it to a nice red glow to insure the glass will stick:

This is how to begin heating the tip of the glass rod and keeping the heated mandrel warm and toasty - and ready to "receive" the glass. Keep the mandrel spinning slowly in the flame (turning it away from you) and touch the tip of the heated rod to it. Keep the glass rod in the flame to continue to melt the glass slowly while the mandrel will be slightly "behind" the flame; continue to turn the mandrel and apply the glass as you turn. Be sure this initial wrap encompasses the entire mandrel all the way around so it doesn't shrink away and ball up :

Making the initial "footprint" wind:

Melting the "footprint" in smoothly and evenly:

Adding a second "wind" of glass to build up the bead:

Melting in the second layer. Evenly heating and turning the mandrel slowly, using gravity, will true up the roundness of the bead:

Using your graphite marver to gently shape the bead - both face and edge:

A few more beginner tips:

1. Note that I am using a BLACK rod of glass. I mention this because, when just starting out and learning the "feel" of flame-working glass, I recommend using colors like BLACK, DK. OPAQUE GREEN, OPAQUE RED or ORANGE, and you'll find the color change in YELLOW also interesting. YELLOW turns RED when heated, and will give you a better sense of how the glass "holds" the heat. After you get a feel for the glass, try using WHITE. Note that WHITE turns CLEAR in the flame, and tends to be much softer and soupy. I recommend starting with dark, dense colors and graduate to WHITE after you begin to feel confident in your applications. In the beginning, I recommend you avoid using "striking" colors such as STRIKING RED, ORANGE OR YELLOW; also be aware that some colors like AQUA OPAQUE can show a metalic sheen (which can eventually be a good thing!) but can also burn easily, bubble and/or pit.

2. Notice the "glow" of the glass rod in my photo where it is being applied to the mandrel. No need to get the glass "white hot" as they say in order to wind it on smoothly. Just a nice cherry red glow will work fine.

3. After winding on the initial footprint, practice pulling the rod away just slightly (1/4" to 1/2") - which will form a slight thin string of glass from your base bead to the rod - then focus your flame on this thin string and you'll be able to "flame cut" the rod without distorting your base bead. After some practice, this will become second nature.

4. After you've shaped your bead nicely round, spin it gently in the "back" of the flame (see photo for flame location) and this will allow the bead to start the cool down process without further melting or distorting. This is referred to as "flame annealing".

5. Consider getting a small crock pot with vermiculite in it, turn to high, which you can put your finished beads into and allow them to continue to cool down slowly. Or get yourself a fiber blanket, wrap it in foil and fold it in half to sandwich the cooling beads in. This will help prevent thermal shock of the bead which comes from it cooling too quickly on the exterior while still hot at the mandrel point. Be sure the glow is gone from the bead before putting it into vermiculite or the fiber blanket so it doesn't get dents or marks from still being too soft.

Hope these tips help! Good luck and have fun! We'd love to see how you're doing.

DeAnne in CA

beadsoncypress · #11 2009-04-14, 3:36am

DeAnn, you should post your "tutorial" in the free tutorials! Super explanations and photos!!

mechanicalamber · #12 2009-04-14, 4:16am

I have to defend the Fireworks torch a little. I've been working on one for about 4 years now, and it does just fine for me. Then again I learned on it, so maybe I'm just used to its quirks. It took about 2 years for my button striker to stop working, I think there's a flint in there that got worn down. Also, there is the bonus that you can get the reduction flame if you want it (just don't touch the metal collar with bare fingers after you've been torching for awhile-yeowch!) I think that you can't get a reduction flame on a hothead unless you use something (foil?) to close the air ports (someone correct me if I'm wrong, please). A reduction flame is probably not a big deal for beginners, but you may want it later to try some of the glasses that react to it. A hothead may be a better torch, I don't know. Just don't throw away your fireworks, you may want it later!

Does anyone know if a hot head gets hotter than a fireworks? Maybe someone who started with a fireworks and moved up? Sorry to hijack the thread, but that would be good to know!

pam · #13 2009-04-14, 4:26am

DeAnne, that was a fantastic tutorial and one that every new torchworker should have. Great job, and thanks so much for sharing it.

GoldSmithy · #14 2009-04-14, 4:49am

DeAnne-that tutorial is GREAT. Just what this newbie needs. Thanks a lot for your effort.

Ever After · #15 2009-04-14, 5:12am

perfect tips Deanne, and perfect nail tips too, your manicure is nottttttttttt befitting of a beadmaker!!!!
you make me feel like a slug, lol

Dale M. · #16 2009-04-14, 7:39am

DeAnne, absolutely great pictures.........

Dale

Diane (clarus) · #17 2009-04-14, 8:17am

DeAnne, your tutorial should be a sticky in the Tutorials section! I wish I had something like that when I first started.

Karen, in addition to the tips everyone else have posted, another way to learn is through DVDs. There is a DVD rental vendor at www.smartflix.com that rents tutorial DVDs on a variety of subjects including lampworking. A couple of good ones to start with are anything by Jim Smircich or Corina Tettinger, and there's one called "Torch Time" that teaches you how to use a Hot Head, but would be applicable to your Fireworks torch as well.

Cindy Jenkins' "Making Glass Beads" is a must have, and when you can afford it Corina's "Passing The Flame" is probably the best book written on the subject. I've been at this for 3 years now and still pull it out. It's expensive but well worth it.

Most of all - HAVE FUN! Practice, practice, practice is the best way to learn.

-Diane

ginko · #18 2009-04-14, 8:42am

DeAnne, your post is wonderful. It is so good to see a newbie getting such good encouragement and advice. Thank you!

theglasszone · #19 2009-04-14, 9:43am

Thank you guys - and I sure hope it helps Mr. and Mrs. Wuvie - as well as any other lampworkers-to-be!

I should apologize, though, if it seemed that I was "bashing" Fireworks Torches - I sure didn't mean it to sound that way, although from those few people I've spoken to who've have them in the past, the inconsistent behavior and results seem to indicate they are a hit-and-miss depending on so many factors. I was just trying to point the Wuvies in a direction that might be more stable and familiar.

I just realized that Mrs. Wuvie says she has "dial up" - argh! Hope the photos can download and that I don't cause her computer to go on *TILT*!

Then she's really gonna be annoyed...

Best wishes, all!
De

Dale M. · #20 2009-04-14, 11:49am

I don't think anybody is "bashing" the fireworks torch ... It sort of gained its own reputation for what it is....

Dale

mechanicalamber · #21 2009-04-14, 1:13pm

So everyone else is having huge trouble with the Fireworks? Apparently so, reputations like that don't come from nowhere! I'm feeling thankful now that I didn't have these problems. I'm so used to it now that I probably don't notice anymore. One thing about it that definitely annoyed me was when it got clogged. I couldn't figure out how to do anything about it and I ended up running over to Hobby Lobby and buying a new one. I though about buying a hot head at that time, but I didn't want to wait for shipping before I could make any more beads. Is it possible to clean a clog out of a hot head?

hotblubonnet · #22 2009-04-14, 1:34pm

I started with a Fireworks and upgraded to a Hothead then a Nortel Minor.

Currently the Fireworks torch is used to light the bbq grill.

hotblubonnet · #23 2009-04-14, 1:36pm

I should say that the Fireworks was functional enough to get me good n hooked on lampworking before I got frustrated with it.

mechanicalamber · #24 2009-04-14, 1:45pm

I'm frustrated with it, but not because it malfunctions. I want more heat sometimes. How long did it take you to re-learn heat control after you started using your minor?

klcbeads · #25 2009-04-14, 2:11pm

I had the fireworks kit when I first started up and I have no qualms saying that it was a "pos". The torch head literally caught on fire in front of my face. I never got a reliable hot flame, and it didn't always light up when I went to fire it up. I do suggest starting out with a hothead if you don't want to invest in minors or any of the other wonderful torches that come with many expensive things to buy with it. When I got a hothead, lampworking for me actually seemed possible and I have had many wonderful beads made and sold from it.

ilovetomp · #26 2009-04-26, 10:00pm

I purchased the fireworks red torch and it never worked for me. Purchased it from the beginning lampwork kit. I had to go get a benzomatic torch while I waited for my hot head to arrive.

As mentioned, I think the fireworks brand did make a name for itself.

Hangs Well · #27 2009-05-30, 10:24pm

DeAnne,

Great instructions that I am sure are helpful to all us newbies. Nice mount for the HH. Did you make that or buy it?

Lamp Dude, also in CA

jeepinwelch · #28 2009-06-04, 5:10pm

I started with a Fireworks Hobby Lobby kit. I'm glad for the coupons and think I got my moneys worth at 40% off. I never would have started this addiction if I didn't get the cheapy kit. I used the torch for about 3 months and then tried a friends Hothead. Hotheads get MUCH hotter than the Fireworks. I was in love with the heat and had to have more. You can get so much more done in a torch session. Use your fireworks until you start getting impatient with the time everything takes and if you find you love lampworking then move up to a better torch.

theglasszone · #29 2009-06-09, 9:00am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lamp Dude

DeAnne,

Great instructions that I am sure are helpful to all us newbies. Nice mount for the HH. Did you make that or buy it?

Lamp Dude, also in CA

Hey Lamp Dude!

Sorry for the delay in replying - it's been a while since I checked this thread!

That holder for the Hot Head is a "Creation Station", which is carried by several vendors here; I purchased mine from Blue Moon Glassworks (http://www.austinbluemoon.com/catalo...Fcategory%3D28) and they have some great tips linked to this sales page, too.

I must tell you - without naming names - when I took a class on "beginning lampworking" (the only class I've had, by the way) my teacher had us just tilt the mapp cannister with Hot Head attached against the work bench and hold it between our knees - yikes!!!

I've got an inordinate fear of fire, but was taking lampworking in hopes of learning to control the fire and help to alleviate my phobia. This "knee clamp" method only made my anxiety worse, and I was sure if I focused too much on the mandrel and glass, one false move and that lit Hot Head and Mapp canister were gonna set me on fire! Talk about stressville - it was miserable!

Then I got the Creation Station - which works not only with the Hot Head but converts easily to accommodate a fuel/oxy torch as well, and it's been smooth, pleasurable sailing ever since. It was the best $90 I ever spent on this hobby - and I'd never go back to the knee-holder EVER!

If you can save up, get yourself one! It's awesome!

De

tasminann · #30 2009-06-17, 4:17am

I learned on a HotHead then heard (in a different forum) that the Fireworks was hotter. So I bought one, thinking that hubby and I would each have a torch.

Not! The HH was much hotter than the Fireworks torch. After using the Fireworks a few times, I went and bought a second HotHead.

(Then of course the lampworking bug really bit me and I upgraded to a Bobcat on concentrators...)

I would say that if you've never used a HH that the Fireworks torch would seem OK. But if you've used a HH, then you probably wouldn't be pleased with a Fireworks.