Can Bernzomatic gas cylinders be used with beading torches

Rive Gauche · #1 2008-04-26, 7:44pm

Hi. This is my first post and I have a question on the use of Bernzomatic cylinders, specifically the oxy and MAPP canisters together-- and if they can be used in conjunction with a duel fuel torch such as a Nortel Minor. Would I need special fittings or are hose attachments universal.

I took a boro bead making class and love working with boro glass but my living space does not allow for large canisters of gas to be stored in my condo never mind the safety issues.
Thanks
Rive Gauche

Dale M. · #2 2008-04-26, 8:15pm

You could do it.......But basically the cost of the actual cylinders are prohibitive..... You can get a device called a "steak saver" that will connect a regulator to a #1 propane cylinder.... Have not heard of a device for oxygen cylinders as the threading for hoses and regulators are different...

The cost of using these small cylinders is going to be something like 5-10 times more expensive ... The propane alone is $2.50 to $3.00 a cylinder that makes it $40 to $60 for the equivalent to a BBQ cylinder at about $20 for a 20 pound cylinder propane .....

Have never even priced oxygen in these small cylinders, but I'm going to bet you will use 8-10 of these cylinders for each "gas" cylinder....

This is going to make cost prohibitive and I'm going to guess you are only going to get maybe 8 hours torching on the combination of 1 propane cylinder and 10 oxygen cylinders..... And then you are going to have to change oxygen cylinders every hour or so....

Yes it "probably " can be done, is it practical probably not... I'm going to bet it will be less expensive to actually rent studio time then to go with the one pound monsters......

I would explore natural gas as a fuel and medical oxygen concentrator for oxygen.... Also you could consider softer soda lime glass because the "heat" requirement is a bit less...

Let me also ask, how may units have a BBQ on their deck or balcony?

Dale

Rive Gauche · #3 2008-04-26, 8:24pm

Dale, thanks for the input. It's been very helpful, especially the cost versus the output and the technical information as well.
Unfortunately, the condo association won't even allow barbeque grills on the balcony so I may just have to go with a Hothead for now until I can find space outside. Thanks again for laying it all out for me. Alex

ArtcoInc · #4 2008-04-26, 11:37pm

If you are limited to only the tiny 1# fuel tanks, and no oxygen tanks, you have 3 options:

1) A fuel only torch, such as a Hothead.

2) A Japanese air-burning torch. These use a small air-pump to increase the temperature of the flame. I have run one of my Japanese torches on a 1# fuel tank, but the fuel tank froze up pretty quickly.

3) An Oxy/Fuel torch, using an Oxygen Concentrator. I haven't tried this, but I suspect that the fuel tank would freeze up pretty quickly here too.

If you can keep the fuel tanks from freezing up (keeping it in a bath of warm water?), a small torch for soft glass *might* get you an hour of use out of a single 1# fuel tank. A larger torch for boro would get far less.

Malcolm

Rive Gauche · #5 2008-04-27, 9:20am

Thanks Malcolm. Right now I'm in the investigative stage and appreciate any input before I invest in a torch set-up. --Alex

kbinkster · #6 2008-04-29, 9:04am

Dale and Malcolm make very good points.

You could run a Minor on an oxygen concentrator, but you would really need two of them to work boro (or one of the bigger ones). The fuel situation is limiting. You won't want to keep changing out little bottles - that is cumbersome and it is expensive. Can you keep a 5 pound bottle on your deck? It isn't as big as a BBQ tank, but it is much larger than a single pound cannister.

If you go with a HotHead, keep the following in mind:

Pros:
can use the single pound cannisters of MAPP or propane
low cost torch
uses room air, no additional oxygen source required
no fuel regulator required to run with small cannisters
lower heat --> slower to work --> good for beginners

Cons:
one pound cannisters only last about 4 hours
gets expensive to run
cannot get oxidizing flame
limited on flame shapes/size
not very hot - limited to soft glass and limited to smallish sized work

Are you planning to work outside? Is it breezy there? Is there shade? Working outdoors has its challenges, but it can be done. If you are planning to work indoors, don't forget that you need good ventilation.

Rive Gauche · #7 2008-04-29, 6:27pm

kbinkster- I appreciate your input and am currently looking to practice on a Hot Head and start small and then hopefully when I get more proficient-- look for someone to share studio space in my area. We have a steely-eyed condo president who I swear can see through walls so I'll have to sneak my propane tank under the cover of darkness. Thanks again. ---Alex

Full Frontal Newbie · #8 2008-05-03, 12:03pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rive Gauche

Hi. This is my first post and I have a question on the use of Bernzomatic cylinders, specifically the oxy and MAPP canisters together-- and if they can be used in conjunction with a duel fuel torch such as a Nortel Minor. Would I need special fittings or are hose attachments universal.

<snip>
Thanks
Rive Gauche

I remember when those Bernzomatic oxy cylinders stated the volume in the tank. I was appalled that there is only about a cubic foot in them. Now, they give the weight of the gas, knowing that few of us can do the calculation in the store. $10.50 for a cubic foot of oxygen at the local Do It center! Ouch!!

laserglass · #9 2008-05-06, 8:27am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rive Gauche

Hi. This is my first post and I have a question on the use of Bernzomatic cylinders, specifically the oxy and MAPP canisters together-- and if they can be used in conjunction with a duel fuel torch such as a Nortel Minor. Would I need special fittings or are hose attachments universal.

I took a boro bead making class and love working with boro glass but my living space does not allow for large canisters of gas to be stored in my condo never mind the safety issues.
Thanks
Rive Gauche

i posted a lot of info here on this topic

http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/show...ight=apartment

the short answer is yes, you can use a small 1 pound propane tank with your minor and an oxygen concentrator if you get one of the regulators i referenced in the above link. be advised, the ones i had are gone, but you can find links toward the end of the thread where you can still get them. people have told me that they can get several hours of torching out of a single 1 pound cylinder. a cylinder will last a lot longer than it would on a hothead
__________________
Mark Wilson

http://www.geocities.com/laserglass

Dale M. · #10 2008-05-06, 8:45am

This a device called a "Steak Saver" and attaches to a #1 propane/Mapp cylinder... Costs around $20...

It will allow you to get a inexpensive pancake regulator and connect it to #1 cylinder...

As Mark says, it will get you fuel, granted on limited basis, but you can smuggle in canisters in grocery bag....

Dale

ArtcoInc · #11 2008-05-06, 6:46pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by laserglass

the short answer is yes, you can use a small 1 pound propane tank with your minor and an oxygen concentrator if you get one of the regulators i referenced in the above link. be advised, the ones i had are gone, but you can find links toward the end of the thread where you can still get them. people have told me that they can get several hours of torching out of a single 1 pound cylinder. a cylinder will last a lot longer than it would on a hothead

I bought several of these regulators from Mark. I used one when I tested my Japanese torch on a 1 pound bottle, so I know they work.

Depending on many factors (fuel usage, temperature, etc.), the small 1 pound bottles can freeze up. Keeping the bottle in a warm water bath does help.

Malcolm

robertwp6 · #12 2011-07-27, 12:49pm

Hi, I have been making beads for the last month and have made about 150 beads. I bought a kit at the local hobby shop and it came with a Hot Head. I kept seeing the Bernzomatic torches in the hardware store and always asked myself, "why not?" I made several trips and looked at the features listed on the packages and eventually decided not to use the mapp (or propane)/oxygen combo because the torch just looked like the flame would be too small. I opted for this:
http://www.lowes.com/webapp/wcs/stor...Head%202880061

Wow! I can't tell you the difference that this torch made over the one that came in the kit (which is also the standard torch sold in most hobby stores.) I can't see ever needing anything more than this. It melts the glass quickly and gives you a wide range of heat to work with as you move closer or farther away from the flame.

LarryC · #13 2011-07-27, 1:11pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by robertwp6

Hi, I have been making beads for the last month and have made about 150 beads. I bought a kit at the local hobby shop and it came with a Hot Head. I kept seeing the Bernzomatic torches in the hardware store and always asked myself, "why not?" I made several trips and looked at the features listed on the packages and eventually decided not to use the mapp (or propane)/oxygen combo because the torch just looked like the flame would be too small. I opted for this:
http://www.lowes.com/webapp/wcs/stor...Head%202880061

Wow! I can't tell you the difference that this torch made over the one that came in the kit (which is also the standard torch sold in most hobby stores.) I can't see ever needing anything more than this. It melts the glass quickly and gives you a wide range of heat to work with as you move closer or farther away from the flame.

You should try an Oxy/Propane setup. It is night and day compared to the Hothead or Brazing torch you show. Really.....

Conrad Hoffman · #14 2011-07-27, 6:05pm

Those little tanks of oxygen are just stupidly expensive and you'd go through them like water. Not a problem because you can have a standard oxygen tank inside almost anywhere. A half size tank is easy to carry and won't scare the neighbors- keep a spare though as they don't last that long.

I run my Bullet on 1# propane tanks with a regulator. Works fine, but I do shorter torch sessions than a bead maker. Still, it's not that bad. I do use a full size regulator (had to adapt plumbing) and I think that helps with freeze ups. I can run my inner and outer stages full blast without a problem. I typically buy a twin pack of fat boy cans at Walmart or wherever they go on sale for $5-6 for the pair.