Another Sidewinder/Oxycons Question - Setting Up

[Liquidsand]

Hello All,
It looks like I am getting a Sidewinder, hopefully at the end of the week! I currently have a Cheetah running on two Integra 10s and a Devilbiss 5lpm all linked together. I also have y-splitters on the oxygen and propane outputs in order to run my Little Torch. It is a 4 stud Sidewinder, and I am asking my son to build a foot pedal, but I want to be able to use the new torch the MOMENT it comes in the mail, so I am trying to get set up to use it without the foot pedal in advance.

Does a new GTT torch comes with a set of hoses, or do I need to purchase those as well? Can anyone point me towards what parts specifically I need to Y the hoses from the torch studs to the source? Mountain Glass has brass Y's, but I am a little confused about what other fittings would make the set-up complete, both for the oxy and propane, not being able to envision it and plan it out in my head at the moment..

It occurred to me that maybe I wouldn't have to Y the oxygen if I hook up one concentrator to the inner fire and two to the outer ring. Is that preferable to having all the oxygen come into the torch together, and if so, will the Bobcat inner fire do well on 5lpms/8.5psi?

I haven't seen anyone talking about having the exact same set-up on here, but hopefully I can piece together the solution if anyone has any tidbits of information.

Thank you for your help!
Martha

[shawnette]

GTT torches don't come with hoses, unless you purchase them. Here's a picture of my fuel "Y", which is actually a brass "T" that I use sideways. You can get them at Home Depot, Ace or any hardware store that carries brass adapters. (You don't need the brass parts that I have on the ends. GTTs have push-on barbs.)



When mine comes, I plan to use separate oxycons on the inner and outer, but i'm going to try it both ways to see which works best for me.

[Liquidsand]

Shawnette,
Thanks for your response!
I thought for some reason you already had a Sidewinder? I took your advice from other threads and called Malcolm for the torch.
So can you just cut your oxy and fuel lines into two short pieces and one long piece that goes to the source? I'm just wondering about the black hose in your picture, whether you got that at a welding shop or something? I've never seen hoses other than red and green... And did you just slide the hose right over the ends of the T itself, or did you use hose barbs on all the threaded parts? I am using the same kind of T for my concentrators. It just seems like without the barbs the hose wouldn't fit over the threads, and I can't quite tell for sure from your picture. Sorry to badger you for details, but it has been so long since I had to set up a new system, other than connecting my additional concentrators, which seemed more complicated than I like to admit.

I would love to hear from anyone if they run a Bobcat on a 5LPM machine (unmodified). Since I've never run one before, I'm not sure if I'll be able to tell if it's doing all it can. But my Lynx chugged along happily on one Integra 10 for years.

Martha

[shawnette]

The T has barbs. It's a 1/4" adapter, the same as this:



Nope. I just ordered a Sidewinder last week. I used to have a 4-stud Phantom, which is the triple mix torch that the Sidewinder is based on. This Y is actually the one that I used on my Phantom. The black hose is T-rated fuel hose that I got from a local company that fabricates hoses. You can just cut a couple of pieces of your existing fuel hose.

Just for you, I hooked up an unmodified, low oxy 5lpm machine to my Bobcat and was able to melt a gather of 5mm boro in a borderline acceptable amount of time (it was slow, but not terribly bad). It took about twice as long as it would take on tanked oxy, but keep in mind that the oxygen purity on this particular machine is really low. Not sure exactly what it is, but I'm thinking around 88 or 89% since it was decommissioned from medical use for that reason. It's an Airsep Elite and I'm not sure what the PSI is for that machine, but I think it's around 6PSI.

I normally use a holding tank setup (2 5lpm machines & 2 11gal tanks in series) but I just hooked the torch straight to the machine this time. If I hook it to my good machines on the holding tanks, it hums along awesomely. If your DeVilbiss is in good shape with good purity, you should be fine. They run at a higher PSI than most 5lpm machines at around 9 or 10PSI, which is plenty for the Bobcat.

[Liquidsand]

Shawnette you're the best! Thank you for taking the time just for me(and anyone else who may read this in the future too) to experiment.

I have to be able to work faster. My work is selling (for which I am endlessly thankful) but my ability to produce is severely held back by my small torch/concentrators. Ideally I would upgrade to a Mirage/Kobuki and tanked(or liquid!) but like many people, tanks just aren't really do-able for my current situation. So the Sidewinder seems like the solution.

After doing some more reading and your report on the subject, it just doesn't seem like separating the concentrators is going to work (for me). I'm looking for a hotter and bigger flame, so I can work faster and with bigger tubing. (For years I didn't understand the whole "bigger torch" thing, I thought it was funny, but now I'm doing hollow work, all I can think about while at the torch is damn this is taking way too long.)

It seems on the forum that people are mostly unsatisfied with a Bobcat on a single 5lpm. It apparently makes a big difference when more lpm are provided. Since I'm accustomed to working on a Lynx and Cheetah, and they're not enough for the majority of my stuff nowadays, I can't imagine that I'll be using the Bobcat inner fire on its own much anyway. I'd probably just switch back to my Lynx for prolonged detailed work.

My brass T isn't like yours after all; I was looking all over the place locally for that part with the three barbs when I was trying to set up my additional concentrators. I had to order everything but the hose!

Thanks again
Martha

[shawnette]

Yeah, you definitely want as many LPMs as you can get. I currently have 2 5's tied together for the center, but I'm going to be getting a 10. I have a Hurricane for the outer, but it's out of commission at the moment, so I'll be running tanked until it's fixed. I'm on the lookout for a Homefill so that I don't have to run umpteen machines... That might be something you should look into, as well.

If yours is a threaded T, you just need to buy threaded barbs. Someone else said that they found their barbed T at an auto parts store, so you may want to check there before buying additional parts. Brass fittings are expensive once you start piecing them together.

Autozone definitely carries them:
http://www.autozone.com/autozone/acc...er=898355_0_0_

[Liquidsand]

Shawnette,
I talked to Wally yesterday, and he had a very positive response when he heard I was running the Sequals, but of course in all the torch talk I completely forgot to ask him the question about the 5lpm on the center! I guess once I made up my mind it wouldn't work, I just put it out of my head. Anyway, he seemed to think my set up would be completely adequate for the Sidewinder, and assured me that it would be bigger and hotter than the Cheetah, and he said maxed out it's between a Phantom and a Mirage, so I'm going to feel like I upgraded. I ordered some of their plastic Y's because they are cheaper than Autozone.

I'm curious how the Hurricane has worked out for you. If you're able to get tanks but choose not to, it must be a pretty powerful machine. Let me know when you're up and running and how the standard mix compares to the Phantom.

I wouldn't kick a Homefill out of the studio if it dropped by for a place to stay, but once I have tanked, then I need a Mirage or Delta... you know how it is. I get the impression they don't live very long, and anyway, I have already spent enough money for quite a while!

-Martha

[Alaska]

Another place to check for a plastic barbed 1/4 inch "T" is either Lowes or Home Depot.

[Liquidsand]

I got my new Sidewinder and hooked it up last night. I have it Y'd to my concentrators, with no foot pedal yet. I have two Integra 10's and a Devilbiss 5lpm. Linked all together, they put out about 21lpm when the torch is maxed out. The output pressure is probably 8.5 psi. (For the sake of this particular discussion, let's assume that I don't have access to tanked oxygen for my studio at the moment, which is why I chose the Sidewinder.)
I tried to call GTT with the following questions, but unfortunately I wasn't able to reach anyone there today. So after searching, I thought I would ask if anyone has experience with this, because I want to keep working...

The flame has a peculiar characteristic which I've never seen before. The candles sort of vibrate, or quiver. Not back and forth, but from the face of the torch outward, and very, very fast. Almost, but not really, imperceptible. It is NOT like the flame is breathing, or dancing around. The movement is very regular, doesn't come and go while I'm working, and it's not influenced by any torch settings. The quivering/vibrating continues whether I am running the center fire (Bobcat) or both rings, and from the shortest, bluest candles to the largest flame I can achieve. I have been running a Lynx and a Cheetah with no such issues, which is why I'm reluctant to blame the concentrators. The center fire on the Sidewinder is the low pressure equivalent to the Lynx, which ran very well on just one Integra - no vibrating. I'm wondering if it is simply a normal thing with the standard torch vs the triple mix?

I tried setting the propane regulator everywhere from 3psi to 10psi, and surprisingly, it didn't make much of a difference. either in the vibrating or in the overall flame characteristics. The written instructions say if you're using tanked fuel, psi should be 5-10. I was guessing that is true whether or not you're using concentrators? I ran the Lynx at 5 psi and the Cheetah at 7 psi.

My second question is more straightforward: how long do the Y'd hose sections coming off of the studs have to be for safety? Is there any reason I can't cut them down really short, so that the Y-junctions hang just above the surface of the bench? The way I set it up last night, I had to mount the torch at the edge of the table so that the 4 hoses would hang straight down and not interfere with the torch angle. This left me with my elbows hanging in mid-air, which I found awkward and exhausting after 8 hours.

Sorry for the very long post! Any words of wisdom would be appreciated. Shawnette, did you get your Sidewinder?

Thanks so much!
Martha

[Rough_necked]

I just hooked my new scorpion up last night and noticed the same thing. From what I have read a holding tank will help. What we are seeing is the cons switching sieve beds, I think.

My torch runs hot with 2 devillbiss 5 lpm need a third soon to make it sing.

[castaway]

Having run concentrators for over 10 years I thought I had seen all the problems but I haven't seen this one. Have you tried turning the machines off one at a time, just running on the other two, just to see if it is one of the machines causing the jittering? it almost sounds like some sort of harmonic developing in the lines, altering the length of the lines would also be a test, as would be a check of the non return valves in the machines.
B

[Liquidsand]

Thanks for answering!
Roughnecked, My understanding of the Sequal Integra technology is that it doesn't switch between sieve beds. That would cause more of a slow fluctuation in the flame, or "breathing" from other types of concentrators, but that effect is minimized when using multiple machines anyway. Was what you experienced a very small, fast movement, like a vibration, or more like an ebb and flow of the flame? I am very curious. Have you used a GTT before this on your same set up?

B, you may be right about the harmonic. My son is really good with physics, and his face lit up when I mentioned this idea to him. He says maybe because the ports are bigger on the standard torch is why I didn't see it on the Cheetah. I did try the machines separately, no difference. Although it is interesting to note that the two Integras by themselves weren't quite enough for the Sidewinder.

[Rough_necked]

I had a cricket before the scorpion. When I only run my centerfire( cricket) now it doesn't fluctuate. When I crank the outer it does. It isn't a big movement, only a fraction of an inch less than an eighth. It is pretty quick though.

[shawnette]

I'm not home at themoment, but when I hooked mine up yesterday, I didn't notice any vibration. I'll check out and post what I find.

(My propane has always been set for 4-5psi)

[Liquidsand]

Roughnecked, it does sound like another machine will help steady your torch at it's full range. I hope you find a good one, I know it's a pain looking for them! I think we're having different issues. My candle-jitters are very tiny and spastic and the fluctuation is happening only at the very tips of the candles, maybe .5mm-2mm in length. More importantly it happens no matter what flame I'm running, from the tiniest centerfire on up.
Anyway for tonight I'm still going with the "harmonic effect" theory and I will try GTT again tomorrow. I did shorten the hoses by about 18 inches, which didn't affect it. And I don't know much about the inner workings - where do I look to check the non-return valves? When I turn off the concentrators also I will see what happens running the center fire on just one Integra that only has a few hundred hours on it. If the vibrating goes away that will be a big clue as to the idea of the multiple concentrators being responsible.
I'm also dealing with the issue of the inflexible pieces of hose on the 4 studs. I tried cutting the Y's really short but that was dumb because it made the problem worse, the hoses less bendy but still not enough room for the Y connectors. What do you all do to get your torch mounted and positioned at the proper angle with these 4 big hoses coming off the back and interfering with the space under and behind the torch? Does that question make sense?
Thanks!

[Rough_necked]

I turned my torch around by taking it off the base and spinning it.

[Rough_necked]

[shawnette]

Originally Posted by Rough_necked

I turned my torch around by taking it off the base and spinning it.

This is what I do, too. GTT has been mounting their standard mix torches "backwards" since the Cricket came out. You'd think they'd realize that their positioning doesn't make sense. Rotating it does throw the Sidewinder off balance, though, because the base is so flimsy, so make sure you secure the torch to your bench.

[Liquidsand]

But your torch's bum is still hanging over the edge of the table. Where do you put your elbows?
Maybe it's from previous years of spinning mandrels, but I can't get used to having my arms raised unsupported in front of me for hours on end, especially when I'm melting color in to a large piece of tubing. Is it actually weird that I always work with my torch mounted about 2.5 inches in from the edge?

My son picked up some polyethylene barbed elbows at the auto parts store, so I'm going to try installing a right angle bend in all 4 hoses, before the Y.

Is it only the triple mix torches that come from GTT with the smaller, permanent hoses with barbs pre-installed? That's kind of sad- I like those hoses.

[bob]

Originally Posted by shawnette

The T has barbs. It's a 1/4" adapter, the same as this:



Nope. I just ordered a Sidewinder last week. I used to have a 4-stud Phantom, which is the triple mix torch that the Sidewinder is based on. This Y is actually the one that I used on my Phantom. The black hose is T-rated fuel hose that I got from a local company that fabricates hoses. You can just cut a couple of pieces of your existing fuel hose.

Just for you, I hooked up an unmodified, low oxy 5lpm machine to my Bobcat and was able to melt a gather of 5mm boro in a borderline acceptable amount of time (it was slow, but not terribly bad). It took about twice as long as it would take on tanked oxy, but keep in mind that the oxygen purity on this particular machine is really low. Not sure exactly what it is, but I'm thinking around 88 or 89% since it was decommissioned from medical use for that reason. It's an Airsep Elite and I'm not sure what the PSI is for that machine, but I think it's around 6PSI.

I normally use a holding tank setup (2 5lpm machines & 2 11gal tanks in series) but I just hooked the torch straight to the machine this time. If I hook it to my good machines on the holding tanks, it hums along awesomely. If your DeVilbiss is in good shape with good purity, you should be fine. They run at a higher PSI than most 5lpm machines at around 9 or 10PSI, which is plenty for the Bobcat.

Hi Shawnette, you mention a tank and I know I saw a thread about it but cant find it. What is the benefit and how is it hooked up. In my search I found where you recommended it and added a link but that link no longer works.
Bob

[shawnette]

Here is a link to the tutorial on setting up a holding tank:

http://web.archive.org/web/201207091.../Tutorials.htm

A holding tank allows you to build up a reserve of oxygen for the times when you need an extra boost. I have 2 11gal tanks hooked in series and it works very well for me. I went with multiple tanks rather than 1 large tank because in my area, large tanks are ridiculously expensive. (I've had 1 tank for 5 years or so and added a 2nd a few months ago.)

[bob]

Originally Posted by shawnette

Here is a link to the tutorial on setting up a holding tank:

http://web.archive.org/web/201207091.../Tutorials.htm

A holding tank allows you to build up a reserve of oxygen for the times when you need an extra boost. I have 2 11gal tanks hooked in series and it works very well for me. I went with multiple tanks rather than 1 large tank because in my area, large tanks are ridiculously expensive. (I've had 1 tank for 5 years or so and added a 2nd a few months ago.)

Thank you Shawnette, your always a big help.
Bob

[kbinkster]

Martha, do you have any flashback arrestors inline?

[Liquidsand]

I have an arrestor on my propane line but not the oxygen. I was told to take it off when I bought my first concentrator. I still have it though - should I put it back on?
The vibrating still happens when there's only one concentrator running the center fire, so I guess "harmonics in the line" isn't the issue either.
Also, even when both oxy valves are all the way open, the concentrators aren't maxed out. The Integras only go up to 8lpm each and the Devilbiss only reads 3lpm.
When I was running the Cheetah the output would be higher on all three machines,as much as 22 lpm total, so I know they are capable of putting out more, but it seems the Sidewinder isn't asking for it, so it's not like it's starved for O2. But after the first half turn or so, there's no more range to the flame even though there are three more full turns to open both valves all the way.
Is all this totally normal and I'm just not used to it? Or is there possibly something going on?
I'd love to hear what you think Kimberly!

[kbinkster]

Try tapping the arrestor on your propane line, see if that helps. If not, try running without it and see if anything changes.

Another possibility is the propane regulator. Even though you have tried it at different pressures, it could still be the regulator. Do you have a spare regulator or one you can borrow to see if swapping out changes anything?

Because the Sidewinder is so much more free-flowing than the Cheetah, any trembling might not show up while using the Cheetah, but could with the Sidewinder.

[Liquidsand]

Kim, I did talk to Wally about the candles and he said essentially the same thing. He thought what I am seeing could be the machines vibrating, causing an effect to which I am unaccustomed, because the triple mix has much more restricted ports. I haven't tried it without the flashback arrestor yet, but I will do that next time I switch tanks. I am curious how that would affect the candles? I also never knew that arrestors weren't necessarily required with a surface mix torch. I've always had one attached to the propane regulator. I have another old fuel regulator, but I was sort of hesitant to try it. I don't remember why or when I switched to the one I'm using now, also it looks really different, with smaller dials and different markings...

Mostly I have been getting used to the new torch and setting up the Y's so that I could mount it in a more comfortable position, further in from the edge of the bench. My son helped me out with that, installing elbows between the studs and the Y's. It looks really funny, and there's about $40 in hose clamps being used, but my working position is much more restful and I can point the flame upwards when I need to without interference from the hoses.

The Sidewinder is hotter/bigger than the Cheetah, but I do miss the triple mix. I'm wondering if an 11 gallon holding tank, like the one from Trey Cornette's tutorial, would make much of a difference to it (on 2 Integras at 7-9psi and a Devilbiss at 8.5 psi). They're all connected to the same oxygen line, and when they are maxed out the Integras both read 8 lpm and the Devilbiss 3.5 lpm. The readings were higher on each of them when I was using the Cheetah, while it was still a little bit underpowered, but the Sidewinder seems like it could take advantage of a lot more, even though it doesn't seem to be calling for as much.

The lower combined output makes me worried that the concentrators might be competing with each other enough so that there could be some back pressure. Does anyone know if the holding tank will help to address that, and about using check valves to prevent damage to any of the machines? I've seen them mentioned on this or the other forum, but I can't find the thread.

I really appreciate everyone's input!
-Martha

[shawnette]

I have check valves on my lines. I probably don't need them (you shouldn't if the pressure is the same on all), but I put them on just to make sure that there are no problems with backflow. They were only $1 at a local surplus store. (www.skycraftsurplus.com)

[Alaska]

If interested in equal pressures, one could measure the static pressure of each machine and adjust so all are the same static PSI. Most machines have an internal adjustment for making PSI changes that are within the specification of the concentrator.

Use an oxygen safe 0 - 15 PSI gauge.