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Tips, Techniques, and Questions -- Technical questions or tips |
2009-07-14, 1:12pm
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berry lady
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Join Date: Sep 30, 2008
Location: Boulder, Colorado
Posts: 76
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Here's how to remove silvery haze from Moretti Black
I've run across an annoying problem this spring regarding "fuming" or "hazing" of my Effetre (Moretti) black glass. This is a silvery metallic coating that appears over the black - when thick it makes the beads look like hematite.
I know it's a batch problem because I made two identical blackberries one after another. I made no changes to the flame chemistry in between, and no changes to my process - the only difference was the batches of glass. One batch old, the other new (purchased this spring). As you can guess, I got one good black berry and one hematite berry.
I'm guessing this bad batch of glass contains extra manganese, the principal colorant in black glass. I also guess that the metallic coating might be some kind of manganese oxide, because the problem worsens with a highly oxidizing flame as opposed to a neutral one. However, some deposit occurs even in a reducing flame.
I tried every caustic household chemical in my home including chlorine bleach, rust and lime removers, drain cleaner and even toilet bowl cleaner. I also tried two flux solutions from my stained glass supplies. Nothing worked except the rust remover, which turned out to be hydroflouric acid (a weak version of etching solution). By the time the haze was gone, the bead was etched.
So I thought more about dissolving metals. Stained glass patinas are made of metals (such as copper or selenium) dissolved in an acid solution, and are meant not to harm glass. I had some on hand and decided to try.
The first patina I tried WORKED!!!
I used NOVACAN SUPER BRITE COPPER PATINA FOR SOLDER. The active ingredients listed are "copper sulfate and mineral acid". Mineral acid is a general term, but most patina solutions are made with either nitric or sulfuric acid. You can buy patinas at your local stained glass store. This one comes in an 8-ounce bottle and cost me about $8.
I poured a little into a plastic spoon, then rolled each bead around in it for about a minute. Rinse in plain water, and Voila!! Hematite gone, glass still shiny. Don't pour used solution back into the bottle, as it could contaminate (and thus ruin) the rest of your supply. Remember to use gloves - this stuff is caustic. And it had the interesting side effect of coating the end of my stainless steel tweezers in copper.
Novacan Black Patina (made with Nitric Acid) ALSO WORKS.
If you have access to chemical supply houses you could try solutions of sulfuric, nitric or hydrochloric acids. Muriatic acid (available in hardware stores for cleaning brickwork) is a weak hydrochloric acid and might work.
Hope this helps somebody save beads they thought would be wasted.
Beth
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2009-07-14, 1:40pm
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Who me?
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Join Date: Jun 15, 2005
Location: Hagerstown, Indiana
Posts: 2,284
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Very good information - I suspected for a long time that the black that hazed was kin to the dark silver plum, in that an oxidizing flame made it worse.
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From the Perimeter of the Great Dismal Swamp
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2009-07-14, 5:05pm
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Member
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Join Date: Dec 01, 2008
Posts: 77
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Thank you for your research! It is funny because the "silvery haze" is the same unwanted effect that I had (and I think others had) with a "spring-time" batch of Dense Black...
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2009-07-14, 5:09pm
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Senior Member
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Join Date: May 23, 2006
Posts: 5,540
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Oh, this is great info. And I have some of that Novacan for copper as a matter of fact. Very annoying problem.
Thank you!
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Cynthia
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2009-07-15, 4:23am
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burnin' glass just becuz
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Join Date: Apr 16, 2006
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 1,251
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great research, thanks for the advice!
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Evelyn - Carlisle Lucio w/ 8lpm EX-15 To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
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Give ideas away - there are new ones underneath... Diane Vreeland
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2009-07-15, 9:41pm
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weird
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Join Date: Jul 05, 2005
Posts: 228
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THANK YOU for posting this. This metallic black thing has been driving me buggy for years - like you, I tried everything under the kitchen sink with no luck. Seriously, I've spent weeks of my life obsessing over this. I finally discovered that a full tank of fuel helps to avoid it to begin with, but not every time. I'll bookmark this thread and report back when I've had the chance to try it.
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2009-07-16, 7:46am
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Feb 06, 2008
Location: Southern NH
Posts: 1,015
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THANK YOU!!!!!!!! Made my day!
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2009-07-16, 7:58am
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Mar 09, 2009
Location: Medford Oregon
Posts: 900
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Wow! I am so glad I read this post! I was wondering what happened to my dense black beads I had done for a custom necklace! I thought I had mixed up my labeling or something. Thanks for the info
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2009-07-16, 8:08am
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Ex-lurker
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Join Date: Jun 13, 2006
Location: Orlando, Florida
Posts: 735
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Good investigative work!
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Melody Spence
Visions in Stained Glass, Inc.
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"Life is a journey - travel it well"
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2009-07-17, 3:46am
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organically speaking
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Join Date: Sep 07, 2006
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 904
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Thanks so much for the research! I've still got a few rods of the bad black that got mixed in with my good. Every once in a while, I pick out a bad rod and don't know it until it's too late. Your tip will definitely come in handy.
~Laurie
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2009-07-17, 4:51pm
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Mar 21, 2009
Location: Behind You. Everywhere. I am a Dually.
Posts: 421
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Thanks. I have been having that issue. I think it might be me more than the glass though. I will give it a try with the less caustic stuff first.
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Maysle
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2009-07-17, 5:06pm
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Oooooh Sparkly!
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Join Date: Jun 21, 2008
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 345
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Thanks for posting
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Lili
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2009-07-19, 1:21am
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I speak Murrini!
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Join Date: Oct 12, 2006
Location: In a Glass House, CA
Posts: 9,170
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Oh, I'm so glad I found this thread! I have experienced this with Hades today - I'm so sad about my two vessels that I worked so hard at...curse that nasty haze! I ordered some of the Novacan Super Brite and hopefully (praying!) it will clear the haze off! These vessels took me a long time to make...sure hope it works!
I was wondering - were the beads you used it on black with colors, too? Do you think it will affect the colored glass? If so, I may try using a tiny paintbrush to put it only on the black; it would be a pain in the butt but worth it!
Thanks for giving this great advice!
De
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2009-07-20, 9:05am
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berry lady
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Join Date: Sep 30, 2008
Location: Boulder, Colorado
Posts: 76
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Hi, De.
My blackberries also contain some reds, as well as some green and beige colors in the center plug. These were not effected by the patina solution.
My experience in making stained glass panels was that the patinas did not have any effect on any of the actual glass colors.
HOWEVER, I heard (but did not experience) that patina solutions could remove or discolor the irridized coating (stannous chloride) that is sprayed on some stained glass. The supplier who is selling you the patina should know if there have been customer complaints.
My guess is that the patina will remove most metallic surface coatings. This could include fumed gold or silver, the hazing on Copper Green and Silver Plum, or even exposed (not cased) dichroic coating.
I recommend you make some very quick and dirty beads using the same colors from your vessels including any fuming or other metal effects, then dunk 'em to test before putting your actual vessels in the solution.
The Patina solutions are very watery and will be inclined to run even if they are painted on. If you must protect any sensitive areas on the vessels it would be best to mask them with Elmer's Glue or Etchall resist gel and let dry before applying patina solution to the rest of the bead.
BTW, Novacan patinas are available on the internet from dozens of mailorder suppliers and the cost seems to be about $4 everywhere.
Beth
Quote:
Originally Posted by theglasszone
Oh, I'm so glad I found this thread! I have experienced this with Hades today - I'm so sad about my two vessels that I worked so hard at...curse that nasty haze! I ordered some of the Novacan Super Brite and hopefully (praying!) it will clear the haze off! These vessels took me a long time to make...sure hope it works!
I was wondering - were the beads you used it on black with colors, too? Do you think it will affect the colored glass? If so, I may try using a tiny paintbrush to put it only on the black; it would be a pain in the butt but worth it!
Thanks for giving this great advice!
De
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2009-07-20, 10:50am
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I speak Murrini!
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Join Date: Oct 12, 2006
Location: In a Glass House, CA
Posts: 9,170
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Oh, Beth - thanks so much! I did purchase the Novacan solution on the net - from these glass people - and have already received confirmation of shipping:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Novacan-Super-Br...3286.m20.l1116
Even though it was just a few cents less than everyone else, they ship Priority and I want to try it asap!!!
I think your "test" idea is a good one...and the masking idea awesome! I will be sure to post results as soon as I can.
Thanks again for taking the time and effort! It is truly appreciated!
De
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2009-07-20, 2:53pm
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Happy Beadmaker!
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Join Date: Sep 08, 2005
Location: Clearwater, FL
Posts: 2,345
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Hi all! I've had good luck removing haze from various colors with CLR too -- you can get it at the grocery store. I originally bought it to remove limescale from an antique enamelware coffee pot!
FYI,
Lea
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2009-07-20, 3:56pm
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Cats & Glass!
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Join Date: Jul 15, 2005
Location: Chelsea, AL
Posts: 1,648
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If you have an electroforming kit, e-forming solution will take off any metallic patina in mere minutes. I soaked some copper green beads for 30 minutes the other day - voila! Rod-color green (the haze that I normally like just didn't look good on these beads).
I suppose it's the same theory as the patina solution above.
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Janelle Zorko Schultz
Pigeon Point Glass
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2009-07-20, 5:53pm
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Sparkle Strumpet
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Join Date: Aug 16, 2005
Location: Port Saint Lucie, FL
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'Tis very kind of you to share!
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2010-12-21, 8:16am
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Fire n Sand Glass Art
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Join Date: Jun 11, 2005
Location: West MI
Posts: 1,108
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bumping this up
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2010-12-21, 8:43am
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Formerly FishBulb
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Join Date: Dec 05, 2008
Location: Pony Flower Princess Land
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Fantastic piece of advice, thank you!
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2010-12-21, 4:16pm
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Aug 01, 2005
Posts: 2,159
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E-forming solutions are sulfuric acid, copper sulfate and a dash of nitric acid thrown in for fun. That'll clear your patina!
Robert
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Robert Simmons
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