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Tips, Techniques, and Questions -- Technical questions or tips

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  #1  
Old 2009-07-14, 1:12pm
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EJohnsonArtGlass EJohnsonArtGlass is offline
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Talking Here's how to remove silvery haze from Moretti Black

I've run across an annoying problem this spring regarding "fuming" or "hazing" of my Effetre (Moretti) black glass. This is a silvery metallic coating that appears over the black - when thick it makes the beads look like hematite.

I know it's a batch problem because I made two identical blackberries one after another. I made no changes to the flame chemistry in between, and no changes to my process - the only difference was the batches of glass. One batch old, the other new (purchased this spring). As you can guess, I got one good black berry and one hematite berry.

I'm guessing this bad batch of glass contains extra manganese, the principal colorant in black glass. I also guess that the metallic coating might be some kind of manganese oxide, because the problem worsens with a highly oxidizing flame as opposed to a neutral one. However, some deposit occurs even in a reducing flame.

I tried every caustic household chemical in my home including chlorine bleach, rust and lime removers, drain cleaner and even toilet bowl cleaner. I also tried two flux solutions from my stained glass supplies. Nothing worked except the rust remover, which turned out to be hydroflouric acid (a weak version of etching solution). By the time the haze was gone, the bead was etched.

So I thought more about dissolving metals. Stained glass patinas are made of metals (such as copper or selenium) dissolved in an acid solution, and are meant not to harm glass. I had some on hand and decided to try.

The first patina I tried WORKED!!!

I used NOVACAN SUPER BRITE COPPER PATINA FOR SOLDER. The active ingredients listed are "copper sulfate and mineral acid". Mineral acid is a general term, but most patina solutions are made with either nitric or sulfuric acid. You can buy patinas at your local stained glass store. This one comes in an 8-ounce bottle and cost me about $8.

I poured a little into a plastic spoon, then rolled each bead around in it for about a minute. Rinse in plain water, and Voila!! Hematite gone, glass still shiny. Don't pour used solution back into the bottle, as it could contaminate (and thus ruin) the rest of your supply. Remember to use gloves - this stuff is caustic. And it had the interesting side effect of coating the end of my stainless steel tweezers in copper.

Novacan Black Patina (made with Nitric Acid) ALSO WORKS.

If you have access to chemical supply houses you could try solutions of sulfuric, nitric or hydrochloric acids. Muriatic acid (available in hardware stores for cleaning brickwork) is a weak hydrochloric acid and might work.

Hope this helps somebody save beads they thought would be wasted.

Beth

Last edited by EJohnsonArtGlass; 2009-07-16 at 12:11pm. Reason: MORE INFO ADDED
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  #2  
Old 2009-07-14, 1:40pm
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Very good information - I suspected for a long time that the black that hazed was kin to the dark silver plum, in that an oxidizing flame made it worse.
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  #3  
Old 2009-07-14, 5:05pm
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Thank you for your research! It is funny because the "silvery haze" is the same unwanted effect that I had (and I think others had) with a "spring-time" batch of Dense Black...
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Old 2009-07-14, 5:09pm
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Oh, this is great info. And I have some of that Novacan for copper as a matter of fact. Very annoying problem.

Thank you!
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  #5  
Old 2009-07-15, 4:23am
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great research, thanks for the advice!
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  #6  
Old 2009-07-15, 9:41pm
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THANK YOU for posting this. This metallic black thing has been driving me buggy for years - like you, I tried everything under the kitchen sink with no luck. Seriously, I've spent weeks of my life obsessing over this. I finally discovered that a full tank of fuel helps to avoid it to begin with, but not every time. I'll bookmark this thread and report back when I've had the chance to try it.
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  #7  
Old 2009-07-16, 7:46am
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THANK YOU!!!!!!!! Made my day!
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  #8  
Old 2009-07-16, 7:58am
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Wow! I am so glad I read this post! I was wondering what happened to my dense black beads I had done for a custom necklace! I thought I had mixed up my labeling or something. Thanks for the info
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  #9  
Old 2009-07-16, 8:08am
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Good investigative work!
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  #10  
Old 2009-07-17, 3:46am
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Thanks so much for the research! I've still got a few rods of the bad black that got mixed in with my good. Every once in a while, I pick out a bad rod and don't know it until it's too late. Your tip will definitely come in handy.

~Laurie
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  #11  
Old 2009-07-17, 4:51pm
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Thanks. I have been having that issue. I think it might be me more than the glass though. I will give it a try with the less caustic stuff first.
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  #12  
Old 2009-07-17, 5:06pm
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Thanks for posting
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  #13  
Old 2009-07-19, 1:21am
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Oh, I'm so glad I found this thread! I have experienced this with Hades today - I'm so sad about my two vessels that I worked so hard at...curse that nasty haze! I ordered some of the Novacan Super Brite and hopefully (praying!) it will clear the haze off! These vessels took me a long time to make...sure hope it works!

I was wondering - were the beads you used it on black with colors, too? Do you think it will affect the colored glass? If so, I may try using a tiny paintbrush to put it only on the black; it would be a pain in the butt but worth it!

Thanks for giving this great advice!

De
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  #14  
Old 2009-07-20, 9:05am
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Hi, De.

My blackberries also contain some reds, as well as some green and beige colors in the center plug. These were not effected by the patina solution.

My experience in making stained glass panels was that the patinas did not have any effect on any of the actual glass colors.

HOWEVER, I heard (but did not experience) that patina solutions could remove or discolor the irridized coating (stannous chloride) that is sprayed on some stained glass. The supplier who is selling you the patina should know if there have been customer complaints.

My guess is that the patina will remove most metallic surface coatings. This could include fumed gold or silver, the hazing on Copper Green and Silver Plum, or even exposed (not cased) dichroic coating.

I recommend you make some very quick and dirty beads using the same colors from your vessels including any fuming or other metal effects, then dunk 'em to test before putting your actual vessels in the solution.

The Patina solutions are very watery and will be inclined to run even if they are painted on. If you must protect any sensitive areas on the vessels it would be best to mask them with Elmer's Glue or Etchall resist gel and let dry before applying patina solution to the rest of the bead.

BTW, Novacan patinas are available on the internet from dozens of mailorder suppliers and the cost seems to be about $4 everywhere.

Beth

Quote:
Originally Posted by theglasszone View Post
Oh, I'm so glad I found this thread! I have experienced this with Hades today - I'm so sad about my two vessels that I worked so hard at...curse that nasty haze! I ordered some of the Novacan Super Brite and hopefully (praying!) it will clear the haze off! These vessels took me a long time to make...sure hope it works!

I was wondering - were the beads you used it on black with colors, too? Do you think it will affect the colored glass? If so, I may try using a tiny paintbrush to put it only on the black; it would be a pain in the butt but worth it!

Thanks for giving this great advice!

De
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  #15  
Old 2009-07-20, 10:50am
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Oh, Beth - thanks so much! I did purchase the Novacan solution on the net - from these glass people - and have already received confirmation of shipping:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Novacan-Super-Br...3286.m20.l1116

Even though it was just a few cents less than everyone else, they ship Priority and I want to try it asap!!!

I think your "test" idea is a good one...and the masking idea awesome! I will be sure to post results as soon as I can.

Thanks again for taking the time and effort! It is truly appreciated!

De
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  #16  
Old 2009-07-20, 2:53pm
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Hi all! I've had good luck removing haze from various colors with CLR too -- you can get it at the grocery store. I originally bought it to remove limescale from an antique enamelware coffee pot!

FYI,
Lea
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  #17  
Old 2009-07-20, 3:56pm
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If you have an electroforming kit, e-forming solution will take off any metallic patina in mere minutes. I soaked some copper green beads for 30 minutes the other day - voila! Rod-color green (the haze that I normally like just didn't look good on these beads).

I suppose it's the same theory as the patina solution above.
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  #18  
Old 2009-07-20, 5:53pm
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'Tis very kind of you to share!
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  #19  
Old 2010-12-21, 8:16am
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bumping this up
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  #20  
Old 2010-12-21, 8:43am
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Fantastic piece of advice, thank you!
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  #21  
Old 2010-12-21, 4:16pm
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E-forming solutions are sulfuric acid, copper sulfate and a dash of nitric acid thrown in for fun. That'll clear your patina!

Robert
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